So Like....Does No one Sympathize With Durin
Durin's story from the get go has always been a sad one; a child who simply wanted to play around with his perceived friends but couldn't because of his nature as a monster who's very presence was highly lethal to the world around them as well as their "friends" yet still remained kind hearted till their death. That is an undoubtedly sad story made even sadder by the fact that the mother that they so loved clearly didn't return said love to any of her children in earnest given that she was willing to feed one child to the other.
His is a story that has been building from the first few regions as early as version 1.2 in the dragonspine event which was centered around three of Rhine's children: Albedo, Durin & subject two (susbedo). In this event, we learn the lore of the abyssal dragon and his sad tale, a tale that Albedo sympathizes with. In fact Albedo sympathizes with his brother(Durin (he actually calls Durin his brother in this event)) and subject two who was dealt a very shitty hand by their mother for not being perfect even going as far as sayin that he would probably do the same if he were in the same position.
The story continued to build up in simulanka where we were introduced to mini Durin a storybook dragon who was created in the image of the original. He too was a child who loved his mother and simply wanted to explore and make friends but being unable to due to his nature as a monster who's presence is harmful to the world around them and those near them. Fortunately for him he met 5 people from outside the story who were able to use their magic to give him a new less harmful body thus effectively giving him a happy ending since he now had friends and a body that would not cause him suffering. By the end of the event story Albedo come around and reveals that the original Durin is beginning to stir (since he was never truly dead something we knew since dragonspine) and that he he hoped that they would be able to find a proper resolution to his sad fate, something that the traveler to hopes for as he hopes that wanderer will be able to Sympathize with the original Durin as he has with his story book version.
A year nearly passes and we finally get paralogism which i where a lot of my problems begin. It is revealed to us that Durin once again ate susbedo - after Albedo killed him offscreen 5 years ago - and thus inherited his hatred. This effectively killed 5 years of suspense (since we'd been waiting to find out what actually happened to susbedo) to invent a justification to fully getting rid of a child. Now, i wouldn't this if the story potrayed it as a tragedy that the dragons goes out like this, but it's not, Albedo goes from his previous stance of seeing Durin as his brother to calling him a beast, and from this point onwards, og Durin is almost exclusively referred to as the evil dragon. What pains me the most is that no attempt is ever actually made to help him in any way. Rather his heart is ripped out and used in an alhemical process to create a new body for mini Durin.
This completely runs counter to the expectations set in simulanka. Wanderer isn't even there to be sympathetic to the Dragon. Albedo do longer cares for the Dragon he called a brother. No one tries to help Durin in any way whatsover. The story does everything it can do to paint him as evil even though the entire premise of his actions run counter to that idea. The funniest thing is that we have already had a story about a dragon that seemed too far gone and had to be put but was saved anyway (some may call it false equvalence, that Dvalin could still be somewhat reasoned with and that there was no way to talk to Durin, but i disagree since we've already seen that Durin and his brother Elynas were both disembodied consciousnesses within their heart and we've seen that we can actually talk to them as we do that with Elynas, yet we never try this with Durin ). Hell although the story doesn't give us a clean solution for his artificial hatred (ingnoring the possiblity of susbedo being removed from him since it already happened before) it gives us clear possibilities for helping him out since the traveler could simply absorb his excessive abyssal energy and a new less harmful body could be made for him. But no, he's unceremoniously turned into a battery for a body that isn't even his to control, despite him making up a fundamental part of it.
I won't lie, after this quest I and apparently a lot of people hoped that the process had merged the two children to create an entirely new individual. There's a few post that i saw that shared that sentiment so it became my headcanon until we heard him call Rhine aunt, that threw a wrench into thing but the hc maintained a bit. That fully broke down when the trailer came out. As we all know, the trailer entirely focused on mini Durin as the subject of interest, while Durin is presented as the evil opposition. The whole thin is presented as Durin finally being able to get a happy ending. I raged at first, but coped a bit that the story would resolve og Durin's story.
Day one of the story quest was alright but there are two thing that annoy me, both having to do with Anya. The first is how she calls Durin the evil dragon despite knowing that he was not evil but was simply a poor child. You'd think that she'd be the one person who'd refer to him with his name. My second issue is her extreme arrogance that's never called out.
In day two, we witness the witches tea party where they discuss the two Durins. Once again no sympathy is given to the original, since they only ever refer to him as the evil dragon including Anya herself. What's more absurd is that Rhine is present at the table but is never talked to with any disdain or contempt despite the topic at hand. More of Anya's arrogance shows its head here when she tells her friend of her plan for her child . All of her friends tell her that all she'd cause for that dragon at the table is suffering if she gives him that name. Even when told that despite her best efforts, she'd at best be subjecting her child to hundreds of suffering after which he'd simply die, she still goes through with the operation asking help from all her friends, even Rhine despite her being the cause of the "evil dragon's" tale and her calling it an interesting experiment.
Day three continues on with this annoying trend, with everyone calling Durin the evil dragon despite everyone knowing that he isn't especially mini Durin despite being made in his image. The story present us the possibility of Durin and Dvalin finally flying together, but it comes of as incredibly shallow since mini Durin is an entirely different individual from the one 500 years ago who wanted to fly and dance with Dvalin. Hell, the game even acknowledges that they are entirely different individuals yet never acknowledges the shallowness of the wish fulfillment. Another thing that annoys me is that no one acknowledges the artificialness of mini Durin' suffering. He's not suffering due to any unforeseen circumstances or because he stumbled into a bad situation or that he was made wrong, he was made as intended and only suffered as he did because his mother attached to him a fate that wasn't even his to suffer. I'm not even asking that they paint Anya as a bad person, but at the very least acknowledge this. Focalors acknowledges the cruelty of what she out Furina through but she's still presented as a good guy.
There's also a bit in day 3 where we here someone else screaming for help while we're trying to reach mini Durin in his tower. When i played this, i genuinely thought that the story would finally acknowledge that there were two dragons that really needed help.
Day 4 we find out that the very name of the original Durin is now trying to reject mini Durin which is a problem because mini Durin is trying to completely take Durin's place in the world. In most stories this would sound like stuff the villain is doing. In most stories it's at this point that the heroes would realize that what they're doing is wrong and that it's wrong to steal someone else' identity and their right to exist. But no, in this story, the proposed solution is to override the other's story and fully take over since both of you cannot exist.
Wanderer also brings up how similar the two dragons and their stories are that the world can not distinguish the two and that the main difference between the two was that one was saved. He then takes a look at og Durin and comments that it's a good thing that he never came back that mini Durin is a hero for getting rid of him. The lack of sympathy gets absurd at times.
In day 5 we finally go about trying to fix the issue wit mini Durin's existence being rejected by the original's name. We try destroying the original, but thankfully that doesn't work (it's not like the themes weren't messed up already, they should have just gone the full way and put the poor child out of his misery) although i will note that no one really hesitates at the proposition, mini Durin is outright excited iirc.
An interesting point is made where fates and stories are different thing since fates are fixed points while stories go on until the subject dies. What the story doesn't acknowledge is that this should be very true for immortal beings especially those that lack the concept of true death (like the dragon that persists as a disembodied consciousness within their heart when kill and still continue to exist even after that heart is destroyed ).
And so the story end one a touching note the i might have felt had i not come out of it disliking Anya as a mother and further shallow wish fulfillment as Durin and Dvalin fly of into the sunset. Venti is there too and doesn't comment on how the current Durin isn't the one that really wanted this in the first place.#
Holy yap i know, but please, can anyone explain why nobody sympathizes with Durin despite having been shown to do so previously. Traveler who's a pretty good person overall and are willing to befriend even horrible people? Why not Paimon who's usually an incredibly empathetic person? Why not Albedo who previously saw him as a brother and has personally had to fight of the attempts of a clone of him trying to assume his identity and steal his right to exist. Why not wanderer who know what it feels like to be created merely as an experiment for his mother only to be promptly discarded. Why not Anya whom the story claims sympathized with him but never actually tries to help him. She never tries to spread his story to the people despite how futile it may have been, she never tries to get her child to sympathize with the original, she never even tries asking her friends if there was any way to actually help the poor soul. She barely ever even refers to him by his name, rather calling him the evil dragon almost exclusively
TLDR: I hated the degree that the story went out of its way to avoid sympathizing with the original Durin. Its like the story flat out forgets that the original was an innocent suffering child just like the fairytale version.
His is a story that has been building from the first few regions as early as version 1.2 in the dragonspine event which was centered around three of Rhine's children: Albedo, Durin & subject two (susbedo). In this event, we learn the lore of the abyssal dragon and his sad tale, a tale that Albedo sympathizes with. In fact Albedo sympathizes with his brother(Durin (he actually calls Durin his brother in this event)) and subject two who was dealt a very shitty hand by their mother for not being perfect even going as far as sayin that he would probably do the same if he were in the same position.
The story continued to build up in simulanka where we were introduced to mini Durin a storybook dragon who was created in the image of the original. He too was a child who loved his mother and simply wanted to explore and make friends but being unable to due to his nature as a monster who's presence is harmful to the world around them and those near them. Fortunately for him he met 5 people from outside the story who were able to use their magic to give him a new less harmful body thus effectively giving him a happy ending since he now had friends and a body that would not cause him suffering. By the end of the event story Albedo come around and reveals that the original Durin is beginning to stir (since he was never truly dead something we knew since dragonspine) and that he he hoped that they would be able to find a proper resolution to his sad fate, something that the traveler to hopes for as he hopes that wanderer will be able to Sympathize with the original Durin as he has with his story book version.
A year nearly passes and we finally get paralogism which i where a lot of my problems begin. It is revealed to us that Durin once again ate susbedo - after Albedo killed him offscreen 5 years ago - and thus inherited his hatred. This effectively killed 5 years of suspense (since we'd been waiting to find out what actually happened to susbedo) to invent a justification to fully getting rid of a child. Now, i wouldn't this if the story potrayed it as a tragedy that the dragons goes out like this, but it's not, Albedo goes from his previous stance of seeing Durin as his brother to calling him a beast, and from this point onwards, og Durin is almost exclusively referred to as the evil dragon. What pains me the most is that no attempt is ever actually made to help him in any way. Rather his heart is ripped out and used in an alhemical process to create a new body for mini Durin.
This completely runs counter to the expectations set in simulanka. Wanderer isn't even there to be sympathetic to the Dragon. Albedo do longer cares for the Dragon he called a brother. No one tries to help Durin in any way whatsover. The story does everything it can do to paint him as evil even though the entire premise of his actions run counter to that idea. The funniest thing is that we have already had a story about a dragon that seemed too far gone and had to be put but was saved anyway (some may call it false equvalence, that Dvalin could still be somewhat reasoned with and that there was no way to talk to Durin, but i disagree since we've already seen that Durin and his brother Elynas were both disembodied consciousnesses within their heart and we've seen that we can actually talk to them as we do that with Elynas, yet we never try this with Durin ). Hell although the story doesn't give us a clean solution for his artificial hatred (ingnoring the possiblity of susbedo being removed from him since it already happened before) it gives us clear possibilities for helping him out since the traveler could simply absorb his excessive abyssal energy and a new less harmful body could be made for him. But no, he's unceremoniously turned into a battery for a body that isn't even his to control, despite him making up a fundamental part of it.
I won't lie, after this quest I and apparently a lot of people hoped that the process had merged the two children to create an entirely new individual. There's a few post that i saw that shared that sentiment so it became my headcanon until we heard him call Rhine aunt, that threw a wrench into thing but the hc maintained a bit. That fully broke down when the trailer came out. As we all know, the trailer entirely focused on mini Durin as the subject of interest, while Durin is presented as the evil opposition. The whole thin is presented as Durin finally being able to get a happy ending. I raged at first, but coped a bit that the story would resolve og Durin's story.
Day one of the story quest was alright but there are two thing that annoy me, both having to do with Anya. The first is how she calls Durin the evil dragon despite knowing that he was not evil but was simply a poor child. You'd think that she'd be the one person who'd refer to him with his name. My second issue is her extreme arrogance that's never called out.
In day two, we witness the witches tea party where they discuss the two Durins. Once again no sympathy is given to the original, since they only ever refer to him as the evil dragon including Anya herself. What's more absurd is that Rhine is present at the table but is never talked to with any disdain or contempt despite the topic at hand. More of Anya's arrogance shows its head here when she tells her friend of her plan for her child . All of her friends tell her that all she'd cause for that dragon at the table is suffering if she gives him that name. Even when told that despite her best efforts, she'd at best be subjecting her child to hundreds of suffering after which he'd simply die, she still goes through with the operation asking help from all her friends, even Rhine despite her being the cause of the "evil dragon's" tale and her calling it an interesting experiment.
Day three continues on with this annoying trend, with everyone calling Durin the evil dragon despite everyone knowing that he isn't especially mini Durin despite being made in his image. The story present us the possibility of Durin and Dvalin finally flying together, but it comes of as incredibly shallow since mini Durin is an entirely different individual from the one 500 years ago who wanted to fly and dance with Dvalin. Hell, the game even acknowledges that they are entirely different individuals yet never acknowledges the shallowness of the wish fulfillment. Another thing that annoys me is that no one acknowledges the artificialness of mini Durin' suffering. He's not suffering due to any unforeseen circumstances or because he stumbled into a bad situation or that he was made wrong, he was made as intended and only suffered as he did because his mother attached to him a fate that wasn't even his to suffer. I'm not even asking that they paint Anya as a bad person, but at the very least acknowledge this. Focalors acknowledges the cruelty of what she out Furina through but she's still presented as a good guy.
There's also a bit in day 3 where we here someone else screaming for help while we're trying to reach mini Durin in his tower. When i played this, i genuinely thought that the story would finally acknowledge that there were two dragons that really needed help.
Day 4 we find out that the very name of the original Durin is now trying to reject mini Durin which is a problem because mini Durin is trying to completely take Durin's place in the world. In most stories this would sound like stuff the villain is doing. In most stories it's at this point that the heroes would realize that what they're doing is wrong and that it's wrong to steal someone else' identity and their right to exist. But no, in this story, the proposed solution is to override the other's story and fully take over since both of you cannot exist.
Wanderer also brings up how similar the two dragons and their stories are that the world can not distinguish the two and that the main difference between the two was that one was saved. He then takes a look at og Durin and comments that it's a good thing that he never came back that mini Durin is a hero for getting rid of him. The lack of sympathy gets absurd at times.
In day 5 we finally go about trying to fix the issue wit mini Durin's existence being rejected by the original's name. We try destroying the original, but thankfully that doesn't work (it's not like the themes weren't messed up already, they should have just gone the full way and put the poor child out of his misery) although i will note that no one really hesitates at the proposition, mini Durin is outright excited iirc.
An interesting point is made where fates and stories are different thing since fates are fixed points while stories go on until the subject dies. What the story doesn't acknowledge is that this should be very true for immortal beings especially those that lack the concept of true death (like the dragon that persists as a disembodied consciousness within their heart when kill and still continue to exist even after that heart is destroyed ).
And so the story end one a touching note the i might have felt had i not come out of it disliking Anya as a mother and further shallow wish fulfillment as Durin and Dvalin fly of into the sunset. Venti is there too and doesn't comment on how the current Durin isn't the one that really wanted this in the first place.#
Holy yap i know, but please, can anyone explain why nobody sympathizes with Durin despite having been shown to do so previously. Traveler who's a pretty good person overall and are willing to befriend even horrible people? Why not Paimon who's usually an incredibly empathetic person? Why not Albedo who previously saw him as a brother and has personally had to fight of the attempts of a clone of him trying to assume his identity and steal his right to exist. Why not wanderer who know what it feels like to be created merely as an experiment for his mother only to be promptly discarded. Why not Anya whom the story claims sympathized with him but never actually tries to help him. She never tries to spread his story to the people despite how futile it may have been, she never tries to get her child to sympathize with the original, she never even tries asking her friends if there was any way to actually help the poor soul. She barely ever even refers to him by his name, rather calling him the evil dragon almost exclusively
TLDR: I hated the degree that the story went out of its way to avoid sympathizing with the original Durin. Its like the story flat out forgets that the original was an innocent suffering child just like the fairytale version.
Commentaires
It's like a murderer died, but he was actually a super good person deep down, so people sacrificed a lot to build an AI version of him that perfectly replicated his original nature.
What else can they do to show empathy towards the murderer?
They could start by calling him anything but the evil dragon.
He being a murderer is a fact, ok maybe manslaughter; you can't un-kill those who were killed by him. The character you listed was able to see the murderer as someone with a kind heart deep down, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a murderer.
>He's no more a murderer than mini Durin so why treat him differently
Who has the mini Durin murdered so far?
Our quest in simulanka was to kill the evil dragon because he'd been causing chaos and devastation across the land and those who had tried to confront him had never returned. We then find out about his pitiful nature and create a new body through the power of fairytale magic.
>Our quest in simulanka was to kill the evil dragon because he'd been causing chaos and devastation across the land and those who had tried to confront him had never returned.
When I first arrived in Simulanka, the land didn't look that bad; it's not like Durin was actively coming to villages and destroying everything that was there. The people who confront him who has never returned, it’s intentionally left ambiguous as to their survival. The story Durin may also put them in the castle town to start a new life, who knows.
I doubt Mini Durin killed anyone
>The people who confront him who has never returned, it’s intentionally left ambiguous as to their survival. The story Durin may also put them in the castle town to start a new life, who knows.
Yes it's left ambiguous, but when the story goes on and on about how him touching anything destroys them, I feel it's very obvious what happened.
>He's no more a murderer than mini Durin so why treat him differently
I hope you answered your own question.
Confirmed manslaughter vs innocent until proven guilty, that's a huge difference.
Mind you, I'm not even ask that they save him just that they don't demonize him and cheer as someone else takes everything away from him.
I love mika appearance wise but all that love is gone the second he talks, bro is actually just the nerd emoji
The hard chronology of events aren't "true" in the greater sense of the world, only the story left in Irminsul. The traveler is a witness from outside of Irminsul who may get to see how the sausage gets made, so to speak, but the official record will show just one Durin.
This Durin *is* the one who wanted to fly with Dvalin. At this point, he always was. There was only ever one as far as the world is concerned.
Now, just for the record, I don't *like* that this is the esoteric bullshit direction they went just to sell another sad boy who needs a hug from mommy to the Scaramouche fans, but it's the answer. Don't ask me to defend it, because I don't like it. I just know it's true.
They're hacking reality here.
It's, you know, dumb. But it's the answer.
There are multiple layers here. You as a player see two distinct Durins. You play through a story about merging the two. You are aware of two existing.
But, when you're finished, at the end of the story you played through, there's just one Durin. The official record of the world has a single Durin. They are officially merged. We as players are aware of the two, but the *world* just has one.
Again, this is just like how *we know* that Scaramouche is a shit bag mass murderer, but the official record of the world is that he's just some student now and all those family lines died, uh, some other way. And so, we are his friend, because as far as the official record goes, he's a grumpy but good person.
Now, the official record just has the one Durin. And he had a rough childhood but through the power of friendship, he's a good and happy dragon who can control his abyss-related problems.
What are you looking for, here?
See this lore post I made on the subject: [https://old.reddit.com/r/Genshin\_Lore/comments/1q9l9t6/theory\_the\_reason\_why\_gods\_cant\_truly\_die\_is/](https://old.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/1q9l9t6/theory_the_reason_why_gods_cant_truly_die_is/)
I was really hoping for a true fusion between Dragonspine Durin and Mini Durin. Mini Durin completely overwriting Dragonspine Durin’s tale is a fundamentally evil action that the narrative doesn’t realize is such (although it does know Dragonspine Durin overwriting Simulanka Durin’s tale \*is\* evil. Funny, that.)
The story also sends some mixed signals on whether this is a true overwriting or a fusion. Different characters express it differently. Mini Durin being a ‘branch’ grafted to the old tree with ‘clay‘ is a fusion, for example; the story of Dragonspine Durin exists, but this branch has a different fate. But right before fighting ‘Fate’ Mini Durin tells the representation of Dragonspine Durin that “only my story“ will exist in the outside world. This mixed messaging does not help with what the story wants to do.
There‘s nothing even necessarily wrong with the conclusion everyone comes to. Dragonspine Durin may never have been able to \*not\* cause disaster from his Abyssal mould, much like Elynas. If so, that makes our heroes’ actions necessary and justified but tragic. The narrative does not recognize or acknowledge this tragedy.
I pulled Durin. I love Durin. And I think this was a great story quest. Definitely didn’t like this aspect of it though.
Given Genshin’s extensive reliance on unreliable narrators, one could conclude that the version of Durin that was ever anything but an evil monster was a dramatic fiction, and that would explain why nobody was sympathetic to him anymore. This would be completely consistent and have no plot holes, but I’d find it disappointing if so.
Just because you didn't achieve the arbitrary result you wanted does not mean nothing was changed. Any change at all means that nothing is fixed.
The Nod Krai archon quest shows this even better because it does so much faster and in a shorter time period. In that quest you have a father looking for his daughter. You go through removing different impediments in his path. The first time through he is caught immediately.
That is therefore his fate. To be killed by a monster at time t1. The fact that he didn't find his daughter or even the fact that he was looking for daughter at all are completely irrelevant details. What matters is what actually happened because the thing that actually happened is what his fate is.
But you reach into the simulation and trap him inside some ruins. The monster that originally killed him now does not even see him. A man who was fated to be killed by that monster at time t1 is now alive at t1. You have massively altered fate. Anything that happens from that point onward is a completely different fate. Is it the future this man wanted? Maybe not. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a DIFFERENT future.
The very fact that a man fated to be killed was able to be saved is proof that fate is not absolute or unalterable. We have already disproven the writer's claim.
You make so many changes to this simulation that you completely break the 4th wall and at the end you sit down with this man and have a real conversation with him. Woah. That isn't just a change of dying to living, that is a change from a simulation into reality. A change from ignorance to knowledge of the truth of your own existence from the perspective of those from a higher dimension.
But the worst part is that the only reason that the arbitrary result wasn't achieved is just because the writer declared it wasn't achieved rather than because it wasn't achievable. And the writer essentially declares that since they wrote themself winning in their story then they won in reality. No. You cheated. And because you cheated you actually lost. If you cannot win without cheating then you are not a winner.