Why Columbina's weapon lore said HP wouldnt tolerate the gods showing mercy for the suffering of the mortal world when they used to send angels to guide humans and letting the Archons to do whatever they want for their lands ?
Commentaires
Frost_Niflheim2026-01-26 13:24
Apparently, because at some points, humanity developed enough to question and even defy HP several times, so they got fed up and started being not so friendly, limiting their development and not caring so much, as long as they didn't covet the power of the abyss or mess with Teyvat's borders, to keep humanity safe and alive. Currently, HP seems to be off, still recovering from their last grand battle of centuries ago, but the Archons and Shades were given clear tasks.
The dilemma was pointed even by Dottore on the last Archon Quest: is it preferable to live in a dream, forever protected from the external, or to face the truth of the world, as dangerous as it may be?
HP seems to want the first option, but humans want to have their own choice, unfettered by someone else's shell.
chii_Say2026-01-26 13:25
The Lord of the Seven Calamities is Nibelung, not Phanes. The dragons were an elitist society, they regarded every other creature as primitive and insignificant.
IllustratorLast12812026-01-26 13:29
No the lord of the seven calamities is definitely the heavenly principles, the hymns of the far north refer to phanes by that title.
Vulking2026-01-26 13:33
Maybe the dragons were elitists, but it was the dragons planet after all, and they were dealing with an extraterrestrial invader that forced their way into them.
Both of the oldest Moon Sisters agreed the younger one was right and that they should have protected Teyvat from the HP and their forceful ways of doing things.
When we meet the sister with Columbina, none of them speak ill or even fault Nibelung for punishing them due to their oversight of the HP.
Until proven true, I considered anything in favor of the HP half truths and propaganda. Especially since they can ban any information and label it Forbidden Knowledge through Irminsul.
chii_Say2026-01-26 13:49
Uh? How my comment was in favour of HP? I was just stating facts. We have dragonlords direct words about their feelings on other beings. Their words, not third hand records. They were usurped, yes, (and some of them did show some levels of compassion at some point) but the elitist society is a fact, being usurped doesn't change that.
Vulking2026-01-26 13:57
Oh I'm not defending the elitism of the Dragon Race. I'm saying the info we have of the HP is skewed in their favor, so everything looks better for them and worse for the dragons.
The dragons aren't better than we humans on Earth, with a superiority complex thinking everything else is inferior.
I'm just saying that if we were in the shoes of the dragons, humans would react the same way against an extraterrestrial invader trying to claim our planet as theirs.
HP having some benevolent acts is not an excuse, as the HP only cared about those who did things "the right way", everyone else got Nailed, not just the dragons.
OutsideIntropid17642026-01-26 13:53
Forbidden knowledge is just another form of the Abyss. It's not an actual knowledge that's forbidden. And the Celestial nails' main function is to purge the Abyss. The Moon sisters didn't seem to know about that.
Vulking2026-01-26 14:02
That's just the most extreme form of forbidden knowledge. Everything can be labeled as forbidden knowledge through Irminsul, that's why it is rejected and erased from Teyvat, and why so much history has to be rearranged as tales and fables to be able to be preserved.
Your only way to have factual history information, is by having someone that was there be able to recall the true events, like Nicole who has been there from the beginning, or outsiders like Traveler or Alice who can also recall changes done through Irminsul because they aren't linked to its system.
Columbina is also a good source due to the Frost Moon ability to record the history of Teyvat.
PeterGyrich2026-01-26 14:55
>Everything can be labeled as forbidden knowledge through Irminsul, that's why it is rejected and erased from Teyvat
This is completely made up. When has this ever happened?
Vulking2026-01-26 15:12
All the lore books written as fables rather than factual history? Or Scaramouche personally erasing himself from Irminsul (which doesn't erase his involvement in history, just erases him as a known individual during it).
Forbidden knowledge is just knowledge you should have as ordained by the HP. The Abyss knowledge is just at the fore front due to its imminent corrupting danger.
There is a reason why things like the descenders involvement in history is only recorded in fable/tale form or just plain memory of those who know.
PeterGyrich2026-01-26 15:29
>All the lore books written as fables rather than factual history?
Like?
>Or Scaramouche personally erasing himself from Irminsul (which doesn't erase his involvement in history, just erases him as a known individual during it).
Which has nothing to do with forbidden knowledge
>Forbidden knowledge is just knowledge you should have as ordained by the HP.
No, it’s a form of abyssal energy
>There is a reason why things like the descenders involvement in history is only recorded in fable/tale form or just plain memory of those who know.
So like knowledge about literally everything else
Vulking2026-01-26 15:42
Of course Scaramouche erasure is considered forbidden knowledge, it was deleted directly from Irminsul. There is no reason for Scaramouche to hide his past from someone like Durin for example, as Durin is probably the only individual he considers his friend, and is someone that would 100% understand why he did it considering his own past.
Scaramouche refrain from doing so because it will cause a rejection from Teyvat and Irminsul. The only ones that know about him are Nahida, who was there (and still it was hard for her to recall him), and Traveler, who is outside the system and is unaffected.
Just look at what happened when Durin and Chibi-Durin existence merged and Irminsul couldn't reconcile their history, and so tried to get rid of him.
PeterGyrich2026-01-26 15:48
>Of course Scaramouche erasure is considered forbidden knowledge, it was deleted directly from Irminsul.
It’s not. Again, forbidden knowledge is a form of abyssal energy. Unless you’re just talking about regular knowledge that was forbidden, which has no material effects on the world and doesn’t even apply in this case because nobody forbade it
>Scaramouche refrain from doing so because it will cause a rejection from Teyvat and Irminsul.
Scaramouche isn’t rejected from teyvat and irminsul. Otherwise his memories wouldn’t exist to be erased in the first place
>The only ones that know about him are Nahida, who was there (and still it was hard for her to recall him),
Nahida has knowledge of scaramouche’s memories because she hid it beforehand and because the traveler told her. She didn’t recall anything
>Just look at what happened when Durin and Chibi-Durin existence merged and Irminsul couldn't reconcile their history, and so tried to get rid of him.
Durin being fateless is related to his duplicate in simulanka, nothing to do with forbidden knowledge or irminsul
Vulking2026-01-26 16:03
I said the Abyss Forbidden Knowledge was at the fore front because it corrupts people, but anything erased for Irminsul is forbidden knowledge. It gets directly erased and altered to "not exist" while still existing (if that makes sense), that's why the knowledge is altered and only can be recorded in fables.
Also, Durin was completely an Irminsul issue, as Durin's fate was recorded as dead in it, while the other Durin's fate from Simulanka was unrecorded, so when they merged his fate got fucked up, that's why people began to forget him, because Irminsul was rectifying the fucked up fate it had recorded for Durin by purging the discrepancy of the Simulanka fate.
imbusthul2026-01-26 13:52
Lord of Seven Calamities is what the Frostmoon Scions call the Heavenly Principles.
chii_Say2026-01-26 14:34
Are they reliable though, or using titles to fit their narrative? Humans recorded history is always corrupted by bias.
The frostmoon scions are especially guilty of this, by the way, we know they rewrote part of their history to cover past wrongdoings, the whole Lovia incident.
imbusthul2026-01-26 14:35
Lord of Seven Calamities isn't the only thing they call Heavenly Principles. They also call them Father of All and Mother of Gods too. And actually we do not know their name. But Heavenly Principles seems to be their preferred name after the war.
Vulking2026-01-26 13:28
Not an expert in lore, but due to how most of the true history has to be kept in Teyvat in ways of fables, stories, legends, etc, due to the Heavenly Principles censorship through Forbidden Knowledge and even Irminsul manipulation. I wouldn't believe half of what is said in favor of the HP.
We know the HP took control of Teyvat by force, we know that the Moon Sisters (while neutral at first) regret not noticing the HP ways of doing thing and the older sisters agree the young one was right.
So, I consider anything said about the HP just half truths to make them look better. Plain old propaganda backed up by divine censorship.
Without true context, "Sending Angels to guide humanity" can pretty much also mean sending your HP agents to stir civilization in the way the HP think is "right".
Otherwise why the Angels, who would have a nice and chill job revolt against the HP? Maybe because the "guidance" wasn't all that friendly as it is made to look like. After all, the HP used its Divine Nails to "guide" humanity all the way back when the Moon Sisters where still free and in control of their authority.
LostMyZone2026-01-26 14:04
So, you automatically trust anything that defames HP as bad and immediately deny anything that could be positive. That just seems hypocritical and bias. We already got some materials that explained some of HP's actions, and you still want to demean him as 100% evil.
You also forget that some of the sources that demean him come from individuals who have reasons to be bias or unaware of the full picture, yet you completely trust such sources which could also be bias.
Vulking2026-01-26 14:07
What part of **"Half Truths"** means **"Everything"**? It's **HALF** for a reason.
Hitler was a monster? Yes, Hitler was a boyscout? Also yes.
You can be good/evil and still do some things perceived as evil/good.
Broad-Book53642026-01-26 14:27
Considering what we know about the previous world order,I doubt anything in favour of HP is wrong
Vulking2026-01-26 14:39
It was still the planet of the dragons, not the HP, they were alien invaders taking a planet by force.
Put yourself in the Teyvat's Dragons shoes but as Earth's humans.
Humanity isn't exactly a very clean race in regards to elitism and racism, but Earth is our planet. Now picture and outer space invader trying to wipe humanity out because they don't like us. They like the planet and its other life forms, but Humans must go.
How do you think we will react? Taking in consideration the fact that humanity isn't a very peaceful race, is very elitist, and shows racism towards its own kind. Not to mention self destructive towards the embodiment and themselves.
Juniorchief12026-01-26 15:16
According some people it's completely justified because it for a greater good and anything that critical of it is bias.
Zeek0_2452026-01-27 11:59
I mean it did save them so there’s that
imbusthul2026-01-26 14:04
The revolt is also due to another outlander. The Voyager who took the body of a boy. It wasn't just the Angels. It was headed by the First Angel Koitar and the Voyager.
Also the curse that turned the Angels into Seelies is basically, if an Angel loves an individual over all of humanity they will lose their form, intellect and memories.
Vulking2026-01-26 14:10
Why revolt if your job is a nice and happy "guide humanity"? Perhaps because that "guide humanity" job was really all that nice and happy in insight.
imbusthul2026-01-26 14:18
But that's the thing not everyone revolted. Like the ones in Natlan, where most of them were eaten by dragons and the surviving ones defended the Leylines and only Lord of the Night survived. Then we have Nicole who also didn't revolt. Nabu Malikata(Goddess of Flower) was also an Angel but she died helping King Deshret even though she knew it was going to end badly and even warned him. Then we have Sybilla in Remuria who also kinda suffered, basically she had no agency left and at the end of her life, she gave all her power to King Remus who then used it to create Phobos but this Phobos kinda accepts all human wishes without checking whether it was good or bad. Hence why the current Fontainians call Remus the Dark Lord. He died trying to stop it.
Though I think there is something going on with the Voyager. But then again guiding a suicidal species like the humans would be tiring as well. Imagine telling them not to touch Space Cancer and then they do it anyways over and over again. And as soon as their guidance was gone, Hyperboria started to have Slavery and stuff as seen from the description of the Dawning Frost catalyst.
Vulking2026-01-26 14:31
That's why I consider all Half Truths, things are fishy from both sides, but even with their faults, I still think the dragons were a bit more on the right than the HP, as no matter how you twist it, the planet was still theirs and the conflict started with an outer space invader that took control by force.
We humans would probably do exactly the same, including the bits about considering nuking the planet ourselves as a last resort just to screw everyone messing with us.
imbusthul2026-01-26 14:34
True. But the really surprising thing is that the way the Moons talk, they do not care about the Dragons at all for some reason. The Pyro Sovereign tried to contact them multiple times only to get ghosted by them. And in the War where the Moons Shattered the Dragons were happy about it as well even though the Moons were their Kings weapons.
And we have so many stories now but not a single one is from the perspective of the Heavenly Principles or the Shades. It's always been from someone around them or someone else.
Vulking2026-01-26 14:47
I think the Dragons were glad because they saw the ghosting and inaction of the Moon Sisters as a betrayal, and even if the two moons destruction was bad for them overall, they were still happy that the betrayers were finally gone as punishment.
You know, when you are losing a war even a small fleeting victory, regardless of how meaningless it is, can be a source of happiness.
KazakiriKaoru2026-01-26 16:14
Because The Voyager revealed a self-fulfilling prophecy. The prophecy said that all angels will be turned into seelies. This led to a revolt which caused HP to turn the angels into seelies. In trying to prevent the bad outcome, they caused it instead.
Mtebalanazy2026-01-26 16:04
Where is the text that’s in favour of the HP? most text in the game is either neutral or out right negative and fear full, where is the text that sings HP’s praises? even when the text talks about good things that was done by HP, it’s said in a neutral matter of fact way
Anadaere2026-01-26 13:41
HP honestly sounds like a fed up captain of a ship of a bunch of refugees who want to try to turn both the hull and the mast into smaller ships to try and brave the storm
The same ship the guy just fought a brutal boarding action with against dragons
masternieva6662026-01-26 13:41
Just a another propaganda by the dragons against HP to make humans and gods to side with them. We know that the gods sided with the primordial one to make all dragons extinct .
ThinkLettuces2026-01-26 17:20
The frostmoon Scions aren't dragons.
masternieva6662026-01-27 00:03
They are humans worshipping the moon goddess created by dragon king Nibelung.
ThinkLettuces2026-01-27 01:29
Nibelung wasn't even there when humans were created, only there after they were already settled when he brought back the Abyss. This is an excerpt what they wrote about Nibelung, which makes sense in the context of the calamity brought by him into Teyvat :
>On the third day, you forged a shuttle of moonlight, your heart set on the daughter of the stars.
>Yet in your recklessness, you wandered into a fog-drenched swamp, and the forge of light was quenched.
>You are the king spoken of yet unspeakable, O bloodthirsty, murderous blacksmith,
>You are the master of misfortune, the lord of all evil, obsessed with the unjust deaths of the innocent and the ruinous fires of war.
>O terrible and mighty Eternal Workman, lord of two natures,
>So strong, hale, and heroic as the gods themselves. Even the stars look upon you in awe.
>O indestructible Lord, please quiet this earth-shaking wrath.
>Lift the torment that occupies my heart and cast out this pitch-black disaster.
Arsyl262026-01-26 13:43
maybe the Lord of Seven Calamities refer to the Seven Dragon Sovereigns, and the Master of Old refer to Nibelung.
or,
maybe because this was written from the POV of the moon sister? because it seems conflicted with was written in the book Before Sun and Moon?:
"When the Doves Held Branches"
When the eternal [throne of the heavens](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Descender) came, the world was made anew. Then the true lord, the [Primordial One](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Primordial_One), came forth and did battle against the [seven terrifying sovereigns](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Seven_Sovereigns), dragon-lords of the old world. The Primordial One created [shining shades](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Four_Shades) of itself, and the number of these shades was four.
"The Year of Jubilee"
If there was hunger, the heavens would bring down food and rain. If there was poverty, the earth would bring forth its riches. If melancholy were to spread, the heavens would reply with their voices. The one taboo was to succumb to temptation. But the path to temptation had already been sealed.
imbusthul2026-01-26 13:53
Lord of Seven Calamities is the Heavenly Principles. The Frostmoon Scions call them the Lord of Seven Calamities in Hymns of the Far North.
Arsyl262026-01-26 14:22
so if we sort back the time line, maybe:
1. HP arrives at teyvat as guest. create humans. HP okay with angel guiding humans. (peaceful era in Before Sun and Moon)
2. from natlan old record, most dragons look down / hate humans.
3. nibelung leave teyvat.
4. HP become obsessed with gaining power because he was afraid of some sort of threat (maybe abyss or 2nd descender)?
5. HP vs dragon sovereign, nibelung and later 2nd descender.
6. HP stole power and become tyrant. (Hymns of Far North / weapon lore).
If both HP and abyss originated from the space beyond teyvat, its possible HP actually losing the war with abyss, and seek shelter / help in teyvat. He sees potential in using elemental power, philogiston and other teyvat primordial power to fight abyss. nibelung disagree and search for alternative.
imbusthul2026-01-26 14:25
No. Nibelung and Heavenly Principles never met before the War of Funerary Flames. I suggest you read the Deep Galleries artifact set description. If you don't know what that is, it's Skirk's artifact set to know more.
ramsdit2026-01-26 14:36
If we follow Before Sun & Moon as a timeline then the HP does battle with the seven dragon sovereigns as soon as they arrive. That initial war between the HP and the sovereigns lasts for 40 years before they were vanquished, the nations submitted and the HP began remaking and controlling the world. I wouldn't really describe it as a peaceful era.
Arsyl262026-01-26 14:46
i don’t think there are written that HP wage war as soon as HP arrived.
ramsdit2026-01-26 14:49
"Then the true lord, the Primordial One, came forth and did battle against the seven terrifying sovereigns, dragon-lords of the old world."
It's the opening paragraph of Before Sun & Moon...
"Forty winters entombed the flames, and forty summers churned the seas. The Seven Sovereigns were vanquished, and the seven nations submitted to the heavens."
And that's how we know it lasted for 40 years according to Before Sun & Moon.
Arsyl262026-01-26 15:44
i don't really know what was written in original CN, but 'came forth' don't mean come from other place, it usually mean coming forward, arise, volunteer, or coming from hiding. which bit make sense since HP came first as guest, before showing himself to be hostile.
ramsdit2026-01-26 16:04
The sentence before what I quoted is "When the eternal throne of the heavens came, the world was made anew." and in the full context of the book it is clear that this paragraph is detailing the arrival of the HP.
The moon goddesses may have welcomed the HP as a guest initially but the sovereigns did not and war between them and the HP began immediately. It's disappointing the recent AQ didn't really shed anymore light on the relationship between the moon goddesses and the sovereigns but we know ultimately the goddesses were viewed as traitors that had betrayed the dragons.
Sziki2026-01-26 13:57
As a millenial, every time I see the Heavenly Principles get mentioned in short form, i get confused.
"What does Harry Potter has to do with thi...ah, nvm, i am dumb..."
imbusthul2026-01-26 14:06
We used to call them PO as in Primordial One. But other than that one book, Primordial One isn't used anywhere else. And Heavenly Principles is used more.
Killer_Klee2026-01-26 15:05
"Why are they talking about Master Po..."
imbusthul2026-01-26 15:07
This really happened
SF-UberMan2026-01-26 14:27
Come to think of it, Harry Potter would muck up the Genshin universe to high heaven solely because everyone would want him for his magic.
ShiftAdventurous46802026-01-26 15:16
I don't particularly think so. What is even particularly great about Harry's magic? Even with magic, it's kinda pointless if you don't also have the physical durability and capability which Visions appear to give along with access to an element.
Character-wise, yeah Genshin has evil or asshole characters. But they aren't the ruling majority (at least currently). Most likely people would just be absurdly nice and accommodating to Harry.
SF-UberMan2026-01-26 16:05
I'm pretty sure Harry Potter can earn a Vision himself. It's just which one that matters.
Good thing Kujou Takayuki is locked away in some dark cell...
Curlyzed2026-01-26 16:14
>It's just which one that matters.
Probably anemo
guylovesleep2026-01-26 15:37
Eh?
Not really magic do exists and their are way more crazy stuff in tayvert then harry potter
VirtualDoll2026-01-26 21:41
>tayvert
LackingSimplicity2026-01-26 15:33
HP is a sauce
Background-Map-362026-01-26 15:50
It gets funnier when you realise you've stopped associating HP with Harry Potter and now grind artifacts so much that HP now means H(it)P(oints)....
frajen2026-01-26 19:40
Hewlett Packard
Medyanka2026-01-26 21:36
Honestly, HP never associated with harry potter for me, and whenever it is used that way - it confuses me too.
For me, it's hewlett-packard computers, aka HP - exactly as their logo states :D
imbusthul2026-01-26 14:01
This is from the perspective of the Moons, no? Like for all their love and wanting peace, the Moons were ignorant. Like the time when Xiuhcoatl tried to contact the Moons only to get ghosted. They saw the Nails go down but not the Rebellion caused by the First Angel and the Voyager.
Like the Moonwheels, were a collaboration between the Moon Sisters and the Heavenly Principles. Also, the Hyperboreans weren't these innocent people that got nailed for questioning Heavenly Principles, no. They were kinda the headquarters of the rebellion and the Voyager was arming them with weapons. They were also building a Tower of Babylon-esque structure to reach the heavens. Also as mentioned in Dawning Frost weapon, the Hyperboreans were even into slavery.
The Moons high in the sky were ignorant of what happened on the surface. For all their power they could not see. Even though they asked why Columbina closed her eyes, they were blind even with their eyes open.
The Moons does not care about the Dragons at all. It makes sense why the Dragons were happy that the Moons were destroyed even though they were the Weapons of their King.
Neospanner2026-01-26 14:11
The dialogue >!with the moon sisters!< in the most recent Archon Quests seems to imply that the Heavenly Principles started off pretty chill, which is likely when they created the Angels and sent them to guide mankind. Over time, though, HP seemed to get more and more paranoid and controlling, possibly because humans were behaving in ways it thought was putting themselves at risk.
In Dragonspine, we learned that the angels stopped communicating with the people of Sal Vindagnyr at some point before they got Nailed. They took that to mean that they'd displeased the gods somehow - and it seems they may have been correct.
Part of the reason for the Angels' revolution may well be that they were being prevented from aiding and advising humanity, the very thing they were literally built to do.
At any rate, it seems apparent that HP's attitude and methods changed over time. It's not super clear WHY they changed.
bleacher3332026-01-27 01:27
Given that Imulaukr had to fight hordes of abyssal monster to find his way to the mountaintop, I think the people there dabbled in abyss at some point and the Nail did its job properly.
allmistake22026-01-30 05:32
Also the frostbearing tree is literally contaminated by abyssal power, and its regrowth was actively being suppressed by the nail fragments we removed. Abyssal activity prior to the nailfall highly likely.
FatalWarrior2026-01-26 14:12
I get that HP have been referenced by that title, but reading the 2 first paragraphs does scream Nibelung: "Lord of the Seven Calamities", "Before the primordial laws", "only complete submission (...) true care for humanity". Then you remember the dragons in Natlan, and it fits even better.
ThinkLettuces2026-01-26 17:21
It doesn't. Nibelung did not even witness humanity's creation on Teyvat.
FatalWarrior2026-01-26 17:47
Nothing in the quoted segment mentions that?
ThinkLettuces2026-01-26 17:49
Sorry I was referring to "Only complete submission can be considered true care for humanity"
Since Nibelung was not even there, he couldn't have come up with this law.
FatalWarrior2026-01-26 23:52
Fair enough. I'm not sure if we know how Nibelung even felt about humans, if he felt anything at all. Equally, we don't know how the HP feel about humans.
Despite how characters insist on portraying them, the HP principles seems to act when the preceding events endanger Teyvat. Sure, they tend to be over-the-top at it, but the threats that they stop would just be worse.
Meanwhile Natlan has shown how dragons tend to think about humanity. And Neuvillette isn't an exception, when you consider that Focalors specifically had to plan around that.
ThinkLettuces2026-01-27 01:59
Nibelung before his corruption so far is an unknown. He met Voyager, possibly a human, then decided to pursue a way to stop oblivion. After his corruption he spread wrath and destruction everywhere. As for the HP, when they arrived and fought the dragons, humanity did not exist yet. So the Dragon's first contact with the "aliens" is a pretty severely negative experience.
Still, Dragons were split on every topic, much like humanity itself. For example, the Natlan 3rd and 8th dragonlord helped humanity. Kukulkan gave them phlogiston to kick-start their rebellion. Och-kan, Kukulkan's son, was favorable to humanity until he went mad and began destroying everything dragon related.
Some viewed humanity as usurpers from heavens, others saw them as insects to be crushed.
All of this is caused by the gradual decline of their civilization, Natlantea. Remurians were similar, they persecuted the rest of Fontaine during the worst of King Remus's rule. The worst of King Irmin's rule coincides with the genocide of the children of the Crimson moon dynasty. The Abyssal decline of Xiuhcoatl also coincides with humanity's subjugation in Natlan.
As for Natlantea, initially they pursued wisdom, the exploration of the stars, moonforging, etc.
Later they started only using phlogiston as proof of strength, after the decline of the pyro Sovereign.
What marks the beginning of the decline is the arrival of the HP who terraformed their land to make it habitable to humans, who haven't been created yet at that point. This led to their severe regressive evolution, forcing them to perform experiments and trials to create a desperate countermeasure to the decline: The Flamelord's Blessing.
>**Report on Reversing the Regressive Evolution of the Dragonborn**: The following conclusions can be drawn from our experiments and trials: Previous regressive evolutionary events have significantly impacted the physiological malleability of the Dragonborn.
>On the one hand, Dragonborn experiencing regressive evolution can, at present, adapt to a stable environment that has undergone (...) changes. On the other, the power such physical forms can withstand cannot be restored to their original state via (...). This can only be achieved via bloodlines... (...) can be selected and beneficial modifications then performed over generations through expression of the mark known as the "**Flamelord's Blessing**"...
>This may well be an opportunity.
If we could... make use of this experiment... **perhaps we could overcome the barrier of destiny laid down by (...)**
This wasn't enough to reverse their fate. Thus the Samsara cycle the Ordo discovered proved to be true :
>The Narzissenkreuz Ordo believes that people continuously refine themselves through samsara cycles. These include Hyperborea, Natlantea, Remuria, and the first half of the fourth samsara (Khraun-Arya), which we are presently experiencing.
>The human spirit undergoes the loss of paradise, the defeat of evil dragons, the original sin and baptism, and finally, freedom from the gods.
This is also the reason why trial characters in the AQ and SQ have **three constellations**. The 4th refinement/constellation has not finished yet.
happyppeeppo2026-01-26 14:19
There is a new time capsule found in nod krai on the left island teleport in the new map aftrr you pick the luxury chest , say exactly how humans defy the heavens lawa knowing the risk
The_Cheeseman832026-01-26 14:32
My speculation is that the HP were from a world where humanity was wiped out by some overwhelming force. They stumbled upon Teyvat, a world capable of supporting life in a region of space almost entirely swallowed by the Abyss, and decided it would be a perfect place to create a safe, secure, and secret garden to recreate humans.
The HP terraformed the planet to make it more habitable for humans, suppressed the dragons, and built a fantastic civilization for humanity run by the angels. Unfortunately, an outsider came into their little sandbox and stirred up trouble, leading their people to rebel against them and forcing them to neutralize their angel helpers.
Then Nibelung comes back, bringing Abyssal corruption with him, and turns the moons into weapons. HP has no choice but to destroy two of said moons and hurl the last outside of the firmament, and still takes heavy damage from the fight. Now they have Abyssal corruption running rampant as well as rebellious humans, so they toss a bunch of nails to deal with the problem.
With their powers diminished, they are forced to outsource: forcing all the gods to fight for the right to claim the seven elemental authorities and crafting the Gnoses in order to let the Archons handle security. But even after all that, there’s still gods and humans trying to sneak Abyssal power into the garden.
I mean, even the most well-meaning deity is eventually going to lose patience with such blatantly self-destructive progeny. And there’s a good chance that the HP is dealing with some serious emotional baggage from whatever humanity-destroying apocalypse they escaped from in the first place. Can’t exactly blame them for being somewhat paranoid about their kids causing too much ruckus and drawing the attention of, say, whatever group wiped out Skirk’s entire race, for example.
In short, the HP is probably both emotionally damaged and increasingly desperate as their grip on power gets ever more tenuous. They likely prioritize the continued existence of humanity over the quality of human life.
Also, as far as the morality of conquering Teyvat from the dragons, I am on Team People. The dragons were assholes, and even Kukulkan admitted that their species was headed towards extinction. No sense wasting a perfectly good planet on them any longer.
Vulking2026-01-26 14:59
>Also, as far as the morality of conquering Teyvat from the dragons, I am on Team People. The dragons were assholes, and even Kukulkan admitted that their species was headed towards extinction. No sense wasting a perfectly good planet on them any longer.
No one should have the right to genocide a race because said race are elitist or assholes, especially in their own planet. The Dragons description literally matches with humanity, so if you are ok killing the dragons, you should be ok killing the humans as well.
Just look at us as a race and tell me we are better than the dragons. Heck, at least the dragons had an excuse about coexisting with other sentient races and being dicks to them in their planet. Humanity is just like them but towards themselves, as we don't have that issue.
The_Cheeseman832026-01-26 15:05
“Genocide” as a concept only applies to populations of humans. One species outcompeting another for territory is as natural as it gets, and moralizing about it is pointless. It was us or them, and they lost. They would have done the same thing if the positions were reversed, and peaceful coexistence was not an option.
Vulking2026-01-26 15:18
See, they have the right to defend their planet and their way of life, so what the dragons did wasn't wrong. They tried to fend off an invader and lost, but they were completely in their right to fight as hard as they could to prevent their downfall.
Heck, they had the means to just nuke the planet and say *"Fuck you, we both lose"*, yet they chose not to do so, TWICE.
The_Cheeseman832026-01-26 15:23
I never said that they had no right to defend themselves, of course they did.
ThinkLettuces2026-01-26 17:01
The real issue has nothing to do with humans imo. Humans in fact did not exist when the HP invaded. It's the mass ecological transformation of their territory that led to their severe regressive evolution and loss of intellect/wisdom. They used to be a space faring civilization and ended up as pets who digs up dirt in search of phlogiston. It's quite the cruel treatment imo, although it was considered necessary to allow humans to live on their land.
By the time humans interact with dragons, they have become "assholes" because of all their past experiences.
And even then it's actually extraordinary that Kukulkan, the 3rd and 8th dragonlords all still helped humanity in some way. This is despite the moon sisters abandoning them and the HP casting them out in favor of humans.
Gregamonster2026-01-26 17:58
Dragons lived by a might-makes-right ideology. HP had enough might to overthrow them, so by their own standards he had the right to do so.
ThinkLettuces2026-01-26 18:14
Before the HP arrived, Natlantean dragons were building a path towards wisdom rather than strength:
>>Kukulkan: Many dragons once immersed themselves in the lake of flame, and thus did the information and wisdom carried within the liquid Phlogiston flow into their minds.
>**But that was in ages past. None now come to this place to seek wisdom**.
>Kukulkan: **Instead, these crystallizations of sagacity came to be used as proofs of strength**... To think that such objects that might push an entire species into the next generation would be used as naught but weapons!
That's how they built a great civilisation, but later declined and lost wisdom.
This is because the HP did more than just overthrow them, they actively caused the severe devolution of their entire species to the point that they progressively lost wisdom and intellect.
This is a species that used light realm energy for their technology and not once did they touch the Abyss at the time :
>Kukulkan: **Were it not for the arbitrary divine punishment that divided my race and cut off their evolutionary paths, why would I have needed to seek new possibilities in humanity?**
>**Report on Reversing the Regressive Evolution of the Dragonborn**: The following conclusions can be drawn from our experiments and trials: Previous regressive evolutionary events have significantly impacted the physiological malleability of the Dragonborn.
>On the one hand, Dragonborn experiencing regressive evolution can, at present, adapt to a stable environment that has undergone (...) changes. On the other, the power such physical forms can withstand cannot be restored to their original state via (...). This can only be achieved via bloodlines... (...) can be selected and beneficial modifications then performed over generations through expression of the mark known as the "**Flamelord's Blessing**"...
>This may well be an opportunity.
If we could... make use of this experiment... **perhaps we could overcome the barrier of destiny laid down by (...)**.
This is why they created the Flamelord's Blessing in a lab: it was a desperate attempt to recapture lost wisdom, which was progressively replaced by base natural instincts, i.e. might makes right.
Dziadzios2026-01-26 15:43
Imagine a zombie epidemic. People get infected, everything gets destroyed by undead mindless horde. There are few survivors but they are minority, with numbers diminishing with each day. The epidemic is currently contained to a limited area because zombies are slower than cars and can't drive, but it's only a matter of time before they infect everything else.
At some point nuking the infected city is the best option. Sure, there are some survivors but their time is limited anyway.
Vulking2026-01-26 15:46
The Dragon race was evolutionary stagnant, but they were not on the brink of extinction, they still inhabited their planet and had control over it.
Unless you think a healthy planet worth of a race, is equivalent to a handful of survivors in a zombie infested city.
You know who is also evolutionary stagnant? Humans, as we do everything with external tools now, not our own bodies, so we don't have a genetic urge to evolve and change.
ThinkLettuces2026-01-26 17:38
This thread makes me realize how much Hoyo fumbled the bag not exposing first era lore to a wider audience. It doesn't help that Nod Krai AQ completely dodged that era almost on purpose.
Like you had to actually dig deep into Natlan lore to discover how the severe devolution of vishaps was caused by the HP's terraforming. In the entire genshin lore only two records reference such an important event.
VirtualDoll2026-01-26 21:45
It was really shocking to me to find out that the dragons were basically just people with a technicologically advanced people society. That was the moment that I truly realized just how much colonization and genocide had truly occurred in HP's name.
ComposedOfStardust2026-01-26 15:17
So if the People of Teyvat have assholes and racists and dictators, and are also headed towards extinction, we should just kill them all, destroy their land and be done with it, right? After all, humans are hardly perfect victims either. Wouldn't want to waste a perfectly good planet on them any further :D
The_Cheeseman832026-01-26 15:21
How does killing off your own species make any sense? We kill the dragons because we needed their planet to live on.
ThinkLettuces2026-01-26 17:16
That should always be a last resort. Coexistence was a path that was never given a chance, because the first thing the HP did when arriving on Teyvat was war, unfortunately.
VirtualDoll2026-01-26 21:49
If I get poisoned, and so does another guy, and that guy has one single dose of antidote in their hand and it's his and we're both gonna die if we don't drink it, I guess I'm gonna die, lol. But this guy would rather punch the other dude dude in the face, grab the antidote, gulp down the vial, and watch the other person die a miserable death. Guess I'm the stupid one for not valuing my own existence over someone else's who deserves to live just as much as I do and had slightly more physical claim to that ability to survive than I did 🤷♀️
Zeek0_2452026-01-27 12:00
>because the first thing the HP did when arriving on Teyvat was war, unfortunately.
Moon gods literally said he was peaceful for some time
ThinkLettuces2026-01-27 13:13
That's often the case in alien invasions (The Day the Earth Stood Still, Avatar) , them waiting twiddling their thumb in the heavens wasn't going to last long. The Ark still needed to be opened and humans created so it was going to take over the planet one way or another. From the surface people's point of view, it was war.
>But whether by submission or rebellion, by battle or by death, the Lord of Hosts would mercilessly crush all that stood in its way.
For this was **the new world it had chosen for the children of humankind, and according to its design, both earth and sky would be reborn**.
Zeek0_2452026-01-31 10:25
>because the first thing the HP did when arriving on Teyvat was war
I was debunking this statement
ThinkLettuces2026-01-31 14:27
I guess if we want to be technical about it the first thing they did when arriving on the **surface** as the first descender was war. The moon sisters didn't know anything about humans in the genetic vault and the HP's plans. So them being peaceful for a time with the moons ultimately didn't matter because no one lived in the heavens at the time besides them.
VirtualDoll2026-01-26 21:46
"I side with the colonizers" he says with his whole chest
The_Cheeseman832026-01-27 00:27
Nope, I side with humans. Colonialism is bad, but that only applies to populations of humans.
bluedragjet2026-01-26 19:03
>So if the People of Teyvat have assholes and racists and dictators, and are also headed towards extinction, we should just kill them all, destroy their land and be done with it, right?
Fontaine archon quest in a nutshell
Neospanner2026-01-26 19:57
One interesting thing that a lot of people seem to overlook is that HP did not come to Teyvat as a conqueror. Folks long assumed that HP showed up, thrashed the Dragon Sovereigns, and then settled in. But the recent >!dialogue with the Moon Sisters!< in the latest Archon Quests gives the lie to that theory. Apparently, HP was civil at first. According to the dialogue:
>>! **Canon:** Is that what later generations call them? I see... But we did not reject them at first, nor did they seem to harbor ill-intent towards this world.!<
>>! **Canon:** We co-existed in peace. They were like a guest in our home.!<
No ill-intent. Peaceful co-existence. A guest, not an invader. If HP had showed up and murdered a bunch of dragons before saying "Hello", I doubt it would have left this kind of impression.
The Sovereigns were fought and defeated later on - my guess would be as part of the War of Vengeance. It COULD have been earlier, during the phase of HP's growing paranoia and desire for control - but I don't think that >!Aria and Canon would have remained neutral upon Nibelung's return!< if HP was already waging war on the world.
Secret_Conclusion_932026-01-29 13:57
You should take into account that the Dragons hates the Moon Sister because of that. "We" in the text only refer to the moon sisters.
Moon Sisters never care about the Dragon and the Dragon don't feel sad when the moons were destroyed.
Gallonim2026-01-26 15:10
HP: We are the new order but don't worry as long you don't touch the most evil looking energy we won't do anything to you.
People: Touch the most Evil looking energy
HP: What we said anyways don't worry we created air purifiers to fix that
People: thanks gods
HP: Is a 300 m long ass nail that we throw with terminal velocity on your land killing everyone and making the land unusable for a few thousand years before leylines energy stabilizes
bleacher3332026-01-27 02:00
Inazuman moment…
Ei: The Thunderbird was causing destruction on Seirai Island. Don’t worry I sealed it.
Asase: *Kaboom.*
Ei: I killed Orobashi and stopped his invasion. Don’t worry I won’t force Watatsumi to abandon his worship. He was leaking Tatarigami so I had to seal him. Hope we could coexist in peace.
Watatsumi soldiers in the civil war: *unsealed the Tatarigami and killed an entire village.*
Ei: I made this prototype puppet but I don’t want to kill him nor can I take care of him since I’m gonna imprison myself in my own depression. I’ll just seal him in this domain and leave this name tag here just in case.
People in Tatarasuna: *broke the seal and started a whole chain of tragedies*.
allmistake22026-01-30 05:36
Eternity really is closest to the heavenly principles.
Dziadzios2026-01-26 15:37
Because they want gods to be able to smite those messing with the Abyss instead of showing pity that will result in abyssal invasion and corruption.
Gregamonster2026-01-26 17:59
It says showing mercy for the *petty* sufferings.
That just means HP didn't want the gods interfering with every little day-to-day unfairness or struggle.
Ammu_222026-01-26 18:52
As one of thr moon sisters put it. They just got paranoid whrn humans get thoughts of usurping and questioning their authority.
Scared-Opening-7532026-01-26 20:00
Because the moons are supposed to be unbiased fate weavers and they’re worried about the suffering that naturally comes with the human condition.
If the three fates started showing bias towards certain individuals because of pity wouldn’t that be unfair?
Commentaires
The dilemma was pointed even by Dottore on the last Archon Quest: is it preferable to live in a dream, forever protected from the external, or to face the truth of the world, as dangerous as it may be?
HP seems to want the first option, but humans want to have their own choice, unfettered by someone else's shell.
Both of the oldest Moon Sisters agreed the younger one was right and that they should have protected Teyvat from the HP and their forceful ways of doing things.
When we meet the sister with Columbina, none of them speak ill or even fault Nibelung for punishing them due to their oversight of the HP.
Until proven true, I considered anything in favor of the HP half truths and propaganda. Especially since they can ban any information and label it Forbidden Knowledge through Irminsul.
The dragons aren't better than we humans on Earth, with a superiority complex thinking everything else is inferior.
I'm just saying that if we were in the shoes of the dragons, humans would react the same way against an extraterrestrial invader trying to claim our planet as theirs.
HP having some benevolent acts is not an excuse, as the HP only cared about those who did things "the right way", everyone else got Nailed, not just the dragons.
Your only way to have factual history information, is by having someone that was there be able to recall the true events, like Nicole who has been there from the beginning, or outsiders like Traveler or Alice who can also recall changes done through Irminsul because they aren't linked to its system.
Columbina is also a good source due to the Frost Moon ability to record the history of Teyvat.
This is completely made up. When has this ever happened?
Forbidden knowledge is just knowledge you should have as ordained by the HP. The Abyss knowledge is just at the fore front due to its imminent corrupting danger.
There is a reason why things like the descenders involvement in history is only recorded in fable/tale form or just plain memory of those who know.
Like?
>Or Scaramouche personally erasing himself from Irminsul (which doesn't erase his involvement in history, just erases him as a known individual during it).
Which has nothing to do with forbidden knowledge
>Forbidden knowledge is just knowledge you should have as ordained by the HP.
No, it’s a form of abyssal energy
>There is a reason why things like the descenders involvement in history is only recorded in fable/tale form or just plain memory of those who know.
So like knowledge about literally everything else
Scaramouche refrain from doing so because it will cause a rejection from Teyvat and Irminsul. The only ones that know about him are Nahida, who was there (and still it was hard for her to recall him), and Traveler, who is outside the system and is unaffected.
Just look at what happened when Durin and Chibi-Durin existence merged and Irminsul couldn't reconcile their history, and so tried to get rid of him.
It’s not. Again, forbidden knowledge is a form of abyssal energy. Unless you’re just talking about regular knowledge that was forbidden, which has no material effects on the world and doesn’t even apply in this case because nobody forbade it
>Scaramouche refrain from doing so because it will cause a rejection from Teyvat and Irminsul.
Scaramouche isn’t rejected from teyvat and irminsul. Otherwise his memories wouldn’t exist to be erased in the first place
>The only ones that know about him are Nahida, who was there (and still it was hard for her to recall him),
Nahida has knowledge of scaramouche’s memories because she hid it beforehand and because the traveler told her. She didn’t recall anything
>Just look at what happened when Durin and Chibi-Durin existence merged and Irminsul couldn't reconcile their history, and so tried to get rid of him.
Durin being fateless is related to his duplicate in simulanka, nothing to do with forbidden knowledge or irminsul
Also, Durin was completely an Irminsul issue, as Durin's fate was recorded as dead in it, while the other Durin's fate from Simulanka was unrecorded, so when they merged his fate got fucked up, that's why people began to forget him, because Irminsul was rectifying the fucked up fate it had recorded for Durin by purging the discrepancy of the Simulanka fate.
The frostmoon scions are especially guilty of this, by the way, we know they rewrote part of their history to cover past wrongdoings, the whole Lovia incident.
We know the HP took control of Teyvat by force, we know that the Moon Sisters (while neutral at first) regret not noticing the HP ways of doing thing and the older sisters agree the young one was right.
So, I consider anything said about the HP just half truths to make them look better. Plain old propaganda backed up by divine censorship.
Without true context, "Sending Angels to guide humanity" can pretty much also mean sending your HP agents to stir civilization in the way the HP think is "right".
Otherwise why the Angels, who would have a nice and chill job revolt against the HP? Maybe because the "guidance" wasn't all that friendly as it is made to look like. After all, the HP used its Divine Nails to "guide" humanity all the way back when the Moon Sisters where still free and in control of their authority.
You also forget that some of the sources that demean him come from individuals who have reasons to be bias or unaware of the full picture, yet you completely trust such sources which could also be bias.
Hitler was a monster? Yes, Hitler was a boyscout? Also yes.
You can be good/evil and still do some things perceived as evil/good.
Put yourself in the Teyvat's Dragons shoes but as Earth's humans.
Humanity isn't exactly a very clean race in regards to elitism and racism, but Earth is our planet. Now picture and outer space invader trying to wipe humanity out because they don't like us. They like the planet and its other life forms, but Humans must go.
How do you think we will react? Taking in consideration the fact that humanity isn't a very peaceful race, is very elitist, and shows racism towards its own kind. Not to mention self destructive towards the embodiment and themselves.
Also the curse that turned the Angels into Seelies is basically, if an Angel loves an individual over all of humanity they will lose their form, intellect and memories.
Though I think there is something going on with the Voyager. But then again guiding a suicidal species like the humans would be tiring as well. Imagine telling them not to touch Space Cancer and then they do it anyways over and over again. And as soon as their guidance was gone, Hyperboria started to have Slavery and stuff as seen from the description of the Dawning Frost catalyst.
We humans would probably do exactly the same, including the bits about considering nuking the planet ourselves as a last resort just to screw everyone messing with us.
And we have so many stories now but not a single one is from the perspective of the Heavenly Principles or the Shades. It's always been from someone around them or someone else.
You know, when you are losing a war even a small fleeting victory, regardless of how meaningless it is, can be a source of happiness.
The same ship the guy just fought a brutal boarding action with against dragons
>On the third day, you forged a shuttle of moonlight, your heart set on the daughter of the stars.
>Yet in your recklessness, you wandered into a fog-drenched swamp, and the forge of light was quenched.
>You are the king spoken of yet unspeakable, O bloodthirsty, murderous blacksmith,
>You are the master of misfortune, the lord of all evil, obsessed with the unjust deaths of the innocent and the ruinous fires of war.
>O terrible and mighty Eternal Workman, lord of two natures,
>So strong, hale, and heroic as the gods themselves. Even the stars look upon you in awe.
>O indestructible Lord, please quiet this earth-shaking wrath.
>Lift the torment that occupies my heart and cast out this pitch-black disaster.
or,
maybe because this was written from the POV of the moon sister? because it seems conflicted with was written in the book Before Sun and Moon?:
"When the Doves Held Branches"
When the eternal [throne of the heavens](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Descender) came, the world was made anew. Then the true lord, the [Primordial One](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Primordial_One), came forth and did battle against the [seven terrifying sovereigns](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Seven_Sovereigns), dragon-lords of the old world. The Primordial One created [shining shades](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Four_Shades) of itself, and the number of these shades was four.
"The Year of Jubilee"
If there was hunger, the heavens would bring down food and rain. If there was poverty, the earth would bring forth its riches. If melancholy were to spread, the heavens would reply with their voices. The one taboo was to succumb to temptation. But the path to temptation had already been sealed.
1. HP arrives at teyvat as guest. create humans. HP okay with angel guiding humans. (peaceful era in Before Sun and Moon)
2. from natlan old record, most dragons look down / hate humans.
3. nibelung leave teyvat.
4. HP become obsessed with gaining power because he was afraid of some sort of threat (maybe abyss or 2nd descender)?
5. HP vs dragon sovereign, nibelung and later 2nd descender.
6. HP stole power and become tyrant. (Hymns of Far North / weapon lore).
If both HP and abyss originated from the space beyond teyvat, its possible HP actually losing the war with abyss, and seek shelter / help in teyvat. He sees potential in using elemental power, philogiston and other teyvat primordial power to fight abyss. nibelung disagree and search for alternative.
It's the opening paragraph of Before Sun & Moon...
"Forty winters entombed the flames, and forty summers churned the seas. The Seven Sovereigns were vanquished, and the seven nations submitted to the heavens."
And that's how we know it lasted for 40 years according to Before Sun & Moon.
The moon goddesses may have welcomed the HP as a guest initially but the sovereigns did not and war between them and the HP began immediately. It's disappointing the recent AQ didn't really shed anymore light on the relationship between the moon goddesses and the sovereigns but we know ultimately the goddesses were viewed as traitors that had betrayed the dragons.
"What does Harry Potter has to do with thi...ah, nvm, i am dumb..."
Character-wise, yeah Genshin has evil or asshole characters. But they aren't the ruling majority (at least currently). Most likely people would just be absurdly nice and accommodating to Harry.
Good thing Kujou Takayuki is locked away in some dark cell...
Probably anemo
Not really magic do exists and their are way more crazy stuff in tayvert then harry potter
For me, it's hewlett-packard computers, aka HP - exactly as their logo states :D
Like the Moonwheels, were a collaboration between the Moon Sisters and the Heavenly Principles. Also, the Hyperboreans weren't these innocent people that got nailed for questioning Heavenly Principles, no. They were kinda the headquarters of the rebellion and the Voyager was arming them with weapons. They were also building a Tower of Babylon-esque structure to reach the heavens. Also as mentioned in Dawning Frost weapon, the Hyperboreans were even into slavery.
The Moons high in the sky were ignorant of what happened on the surface. For all their power they could not see. Even though they asked why Columbina closed her eyes, they were blind even with their eyes open.
The Moons does not care about the Dragons at all. It makes sense why the Dragons were happy that the Moons were destroyed even though they were the Weapons of their King.
In Dragonspine, we learned that the angels stopped communicating with the people of Sal Vindagnyr at some point before they got Nailed. They took that to mean that they'd displeased the gods somehow - and it seems they may have been correct.
Part of the reason for the Angels' revolution may well be that they were being prevented from aiding and advising humanity, the very thing they were literally built to do.
At any rate, it seems apparent that HP's attitude and methods changed over time. It's not super clear WHY they changed.
Since Nibelung was not even there, he couldn't have come up with this law.
Despite how characters insist on portraying them, the HP principles seems to act when the preceding events endanger Teyvat. Sure, they tend to be over-the-top at it, but the threats that they stop would just be worse.
Meanwhile Natlan has shown how dragons tend to think about humanity. And Neuvillette isn't an exception, when you consider that Focalors specifically had to plan around that.
Still, Dragons were split on every topic, much like humanity itself. For example, the Natlan 3rd and 8th dragonlord helped humanity. Kukulkan gave them phlogiston to kick-start their rebellion. Och-kan, Kukulkan's son, was favorable to humanity until he went mad and began destroying everything dragon related.
Some viewed humanity as usurpers from heavens, others saw them as insects to be crushed.
All of this is caused by the gradual decline of their civilization, Natlantea. Remurians were similar, they persecuted the rest of Fontaine during the worst of King Remus's rule. The worst of King Irmin's rule coincides with the genocide of the children of the Crimson moon dynasty. The Abyssal decline of Xiuhcoatl also coincides with humanity's subjugation in Natlan.
As for Natlantea, initially they pursued wisdom, the exploration of the stars, moonforging, etc.
Later they started only using phlogiston as proof of strength, after the decline of the pyro Sovereign.
What marks the beginning of the decline is the arrival of the HP who terraformed their land to make it habitable to humans, who haven't been created yet at that point. This led to their severe regressive evolution, forcing them to perform experiments and trials to create a desperate countermeasure to the decline: The Flamelord's Blessing.
>**Report on Reversing the Regressive Evolution of the Dragonborn**: The following conclusions can be drawn from our experiments and trials: Previous regressive evolutionary events have significantly impacted the physiological malleability of the Dragonborn.
>On the one hand, Dragonborn experiencing regressive evolution can, at present, adapt to a stable environment that has undergone (...) changes. On the other, the power such physical forms can withstand cannot be restored to their original state via (...). This can only be achieved via bloodlines... (...) can be selected and beneficial modifications then performed over generations through expression of the mark known as the "**Flamelord's Blessing**"...
>This may well be an opportunity.
If we could... make use of this experiment... **perhaps we could overcome the barrier of destiny laid down by (...)**
This wasn't enough to reverse their fate. Thus the Samsara cycle the Ordo discovered proved to be true :
>The Narzissenkreuz Ordo believes that people continuously refine themselves through samsara cycles. These include Hyperborea, Natlantea, Remuria, and the first half of the fourth samsara (Khraun-Arya), which we are presently experiencing.
>The human spirit undergoes the loss of paradise, the defeat of evil dragons, the original sin and baptism, and finally, freedom from the gods.
This is also the reason why trial characters in the AQ and SQ have **three constellations**. The 4th refinement/constellation has not finished yet.
The HP terraformed the planet to make it more habitable for humans, suppressed the dragons, and built a fantastic civilization for humanity run by the angels. Unfortunately, an outsider came into their little sandbox and stirred up trouble, leading their people to rebel against them and forcing them to neutralize their angel helpers.
Then Nibelung comes back, bringing Abyssal corruption with him, and turns the moons into weapons. HP has no choice but to destroy two of said moons and hurl the last outside of the firmament, and still takes heavy damage from the fight. Now they have Abyssal corruption running rampant as well as rebellious humans, so they toss a bunch of nails to deal with the problem.
With their powers diminished, they are forced to outsource: forcing all the gods to fight for the right to claim the seven elemental authorities and crafting the Gnoses in order to let the Archons handle security. But even after all that, there’s still gods and humans trying to sneak Abyssal power into the garden.
I mean, even the most well-meaning deity is eventually going to lose patience with such blatantly self-destructive progeny. And there’s a good chance that the HP is dealing with some serious emotional baggage from whatever humanity-destroying apocalypse they escaped from in the first place. Can’t exactly blame them for being somewhat paranoid about their kids causing too much ruckus and drawing the attention of, say, whatever group wiped out Skirk’s entire race, for example.
In short, the HP is probably both emotionally damaged and increasingly desperate as their grip on power gets ever more tenuous. They likely prioritize the continued existence of humanity over the quality of human life.
Also, as far as the morality of conquering Teyvat from the dragons, I am on Team People. The dragons were assholes, and even Kukulkan admitted that their species was headed towards extinction. No sense wasting a perfectly good planet on them any longer.
No one should have the right to genocide a race because said race are elitist or assholes, especially in their own planet. The Dragons description literally matches with humanity, so if you are ok killing the dragons, you should be ok killing the humans as well.
Just look at us as a race and tell me we are better than the dragons. Heck, at least the dragons had an excuse about coexisting with other sentient races and being dicks to them in their planet. Humanity is just like them but towards themselves, as we don't have that issue.
Heck, they had the means to just nuke the planet and say *"Fuck you, we both lose"*, yet they chose not to do so, TWICE.
By the time humans interact with dragons, they have become "assholes" because of all their past experiences.
And even then it's actually extraordinary that Kukulkan, the 3rd and 8th dragonlords all still helped humanity in some way. This is despite the moon sisters abandoning them and the HP casting them out in favor of humans.
>>Kukulkan: Many dragons once immersed themselves in the lake of flame, and thus did the information and wisdom carried within the liquid Phlogiston flow into their minds.
>**But that was in ages past. None now come to this place to seek wisdom**.
>Kukulkan: **Instead, these crystallizations of sagacity came to be used as proofs of strength**... To think that such objects that might push an entire species into the next generation would be used as naught but weapons!
That's how they built a great civilisation, but later declined and lost wisdom.
This is because the HP did more than just overthrow them, they actively caused the severe devolution of their entire species to the point that they progressively lost wisdom and intellect.
This is a species that used light realm energy for their technology and not once did they touch the Abyss at the time :
>Kukulkan: **Were it not for the arbitrary divine punishment that divided my race and cut off their evolutionary paths, why would I have needed to seek new possibilities in humanity?**
>**Report on Reversing the Regressive Evolution of the Dragonborn**: The following conclusions can be drawn from our experiments and trials: Previous regressive evolutionary events have significantly impacted the physiological malleability of the Dragonborn.
>On the one hand, Dragonborn experiencing regressive evolution can, at present, adapt to a stable environment that has undergone (...) changes. On the other, the power such physical forms can withstand cannot be restored to their original state via (...). This can only be achieved via bloodlines... (...) can be selected and beneficial modifications then performed over generations through expression of the mark known as the "**Flamelord's Blessing**"...
>This may well be an opportunity.
If we could... make use of this experiment... **perhaps we could overcome the barrier of destiny laid down by (...)**.
This is why they created the Flamelord's Blessing in a lab: it was a desperate attempt to recapture lost wisdom, which was progressively replaced by base natural instincts, i.e. might makes right.
At some point nuking the infected city is the best option. Sure, there are some survivors but their time is limited anyway.
Unless you think a healthy planet worth of a race, is equivalent to a handful of survivors in a zombie infested city.
You know who is also evolutionary stagnant? Humans, as we do everything with external tools now, not our own bodies, so we don't have a genetic urge to evolve and change.
Like you had to actually dig deep into Natlan lore to discover how the severe devolution of vishaps was caused by the HP's terraforming. In the entire genshin lore only two records reference such an important event.
Moon gods literally said he was peaceful for some time
>But whether by submission or rebellion, by battle or by death, the Lord of Hosts would mercilessly crush all that stood in its way.
For this was **the new world it had chosen for the children of humankind, and according to its design, both earth and sky would be reborn**.
I was debunking this statement
Fontaine archon quest in a nutshell
>>! **Columbina:** ...The Heavenly Principles.!<
>>! **Canon:** Is that what later generations call them? I see... But we did not reject them at first, nor did they seem to harbor ill-intent towards this world.!<
>>! **Canon:** We co-existed in peace. They were like a guest in our home.!<
No ill-intent. Peaceful co-existence. A guest, not an invader. If HP had showed up and murdered a bunch of dragons before saying "Hello", I doubt it would have left this kind of impression.
The Sovereigns were fought and defeated later on - my guess would be as part of the War of Vengeance. It COULD have been earlier, during the phase of HP's growing paranoia and desire for control - but I don't think that >!Aria and Canon would have remained neutral upon Nibelung's return!< if HP was already waging war on the world.
Moon Sisters never care about the Dragon and the Dragon don't feel sad when the moons were destroyed.
People: Touch the most Evil looking energy
HP: What we said anyways don't worry we created air purifiers to fix that
People: thanks gods
HP: Is a 300 m long ass nail that we throw with terminal velocity on your land killing everyone and making the land unusable for a few thousand years before leylines energy stabilizes
Ei: The Thunderbird was causing destruction on Seirai Island. Don’t worry I sealed it.
Asase: *Kaboom.*
Ei: I killed Orobashi and stopped his invasion. Don’t worry I won’t force Watatsumi to abandon his worship. He was leaking Tatarigami so I had to seal him. Hope we could coexist in peace.
Watatsumi soldiers in the civil war: *unsealed the Tatarigami and killed an entire village.*
Ei: I made this prototype puppet but I don’t want to kill him nor can I take care of him since I’m gonna imprison myself in my own depression. I’ll just seal him in this domain and leave this name tag here just in case.
People in Tatarasuna: *broke the seal and started a whole chain of tragedies*.
That just means HP didn't want the gods interfering with every little day-to-day unfairness or struggle.
If the three fates started showing bias towards certain individuals because of pity wouldn’t that be unfair?