...did he really think he had a chance against the Traveler?
Commentaires
IllustratorLast12812026-01-27 09:30
you start the fight if you decided to just let him go he wouldn't try to fight
Meo_cute2026-01-27 11:51
If you let him go he gets killed by rifthounds, which is worse imo.
FungalSphere2026-01-27 13:11
Deserved honestly
Dilucmainbutbad2026-01-27 16:42
WHAT.I SPARED HIM BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT HIM TO DIE.
IllustratorLast12812026-01-27 17:22
yeah i think you can find some tattered notes in old varanara around some riftwolves that imply he died there probably at the hands of the riftwolves
LivingASlothsLife2026-01-27 09:32
Sad thing is, he dies whether you let him go or not. Die by Traveler, or he gets mauled by rifthounds
ReaperofDeath2016-192026-01-27 09:58
I don’t know which one is worse.
blippyblip2026-01-27 10:55
I'm fairly certain the Traveler would go for a quick kill. Even when we took down the Tanit tribe, we '*just'* slaughtered them; we didn't maim or torture or prolong their deaths out of malice.
Rifthounds rip and tear you apart with no qualms about whether you are alive or dead during it. If the in-game descriptions of the corrosion mechanic are anything to go off of, it's an agonizing, bloody way to go.
ReaperofDeath2016-192026-01-27 10:56
Not world quest traveler
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 11:07
Batman would be disappointed.
But nah, It's funny how Travaler got like 100 times more kills than Abyss Sibling who is depicted as a radical.
Nothappyhopes2026-01-27 13:36
We... definitely do not know that. Abyss sibling is leading the abyss order right now, we do NOT know their kill count, or how much they're responsible for without personally having done it.
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 13:45
I mean, in the current narrative the abyss order doesn't do much aside from experimenting, they are essentially just a small cult. Columbina says that the sibling barely goes out from the abyss, aside for a reason to observe Travaler with guilty expression on his face, so ...
Neospanner2026-01-27 16:34
The Abyss Order is [explicitly referred to](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Loading_Screen/Others#Abyss_Order) as "the enemies of humanity" and are treated as kill-on-sight targets by basically everyone. You don't get that kinda rep just by being a small-time cult.
We don't see a lot of their shenanigans on-screen, but it can be assumed that shenanigans were a thing.
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 17:36
I don't agree with your interpretation here. "Enemies of surface civilization" in the context means that they are a foe to Heveanly Principles and the rule of gods. It was stated a number of times that the AO has two goals: the main one being bringing back the nation and their people, and the secondary one being overthrowing HP. There's literally no reason for them to intentionally pull themselves in a war against normal humans, it doesn't align with neither their organization's goals nor with Aether's (he's AS for me) personal goals. During the recent Dain's quest it was shown that they don't really have any senseless malice against normal humans even when noticed: "Nothing that would indicate an impending attack. I've spotted a bunch of Abyss Order operatives, but they weren't acting hostile, just hanging around." They just kind of don't care, unless you meddle with their business.
>"treated as kill-on-sight targets by basically everyone"
Cause they literally look the same as monsters of True Abyss, I guess. But Mavuika says that Natlan had no quarrel with AO until after the fake invasion: "That's what I'd like to know as well. Historically, Natlan has not been a hotbed of Abyss Order activity, and we have no particular quarrel with them." And the same can be applied to many other nations. So it's not really true. Could you send the quotes that make you say that ? Perhaps I am forgetting something.
>"You don't get that kinda rep just by being a small-time cult"
They are referred to as one, though:
1. "One little sect versus the entire nation of war?"
2. "Also, their numbers are much higher than expected. Their organization appears to have grown considerably, but because they're usually so secretive, this is the first we're learning of it." - implied that before they didn't have enough man power to distract the tribes with fake attacks before.
3. "I've heard of the Abyss Order, but this is the first time I've known them to take organized action on such a large scale." - basically means that AO never had any open confrontations with any organization.
4. "Never before have I seen the Abyss Order take action on such a large scale..." - the context of them sending a platoon to a tribe.
Also, remember that "Abyss Order Stronghold", the destruction of which was considered to be a devastating blow to AO had only several platoons of soldiers, which Dain and Lumine (MC for me) easily cut through. Here's the quote: "All these years, the Abyss Order has managed to either stay hidden or fiercely defend their position... This may be the first chance I've ever had to finally make a serious dent in their forces."
>"but it can be assumed that shenanigans were a thing"
Indubitably, I am not trying to make them look like good guys, haha, but they aren't a devious organization as well. Given everything we know so far, for 500 years, the only big operations they had: 1 - getting the eye of FFT to lunch the loom of fate, 2 - an attempt to force Mondstadt divine beasts into submission and use them as living weapons in the future war against the HP, dropping this idea after it failed, 3- pretend to invade Natlan without actually hurting it's people, seeking to distract them to strike a deal with the Lord of the Night. I am sure they caused more small shenanigans every now and then in the 500 year long timespan of their existence, but in a big scale that's pretty much it.
Funny how my joke trigged an actual lore discussion, but I am willing to participate, I like talking about the story. Still, my point was that Aether hasn't killed anyone yet, and I don't know why people disagreed cause presumption of innocence exists and Columbina's words kind suggest that.
Neospanner2026-01-27 19:38
Characters in-game DO make a distinction between creatures from the Abyss Order and creatures from the Abyss, though - they aren't just killing Order members because they look like Abyss monsters. They recognize that they have organization and intelligence that Abyss monsters typically lack - otherwise, there'd be no point in interrogating them, as we've seen characters like Diluc and Lisa do. They recognize them as distinct from Abyss monsters, and still regard them as enemies nonetheless.
Twice now in game we've seen them launch organized invasions. The first time was during Diluc's Story Quest where they attacked Mondstadt. The second was the Natlan feint. There's no reason to believe that invasions like this haven't happened in the 500 years prior. While casualties were few in both cases, if this was typical for Abyss Order attacks I doubt they'd be taken seriously as a threat. But they clearly are.
The Order is also known to be responsible for the belligerent mobilization of Hilichurls toward populated areas. Even if not directly commanded to, we know that Hilichurls regularly attack trade wagons and such since we personally rescue several during our commissions. But what about the attacks we're not there to handle?
As for whether the Abyss Sibling personally got their hands dirty... Possibly not - but there's still a question of how morally culpable they were for the damage that WAS done. If they are in charge and ordering these attacks, it's hard to argue that they're blameless.
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 20:16
>"They recognize them as distinct from Abyss monsters, and still regard them as enemies nonetheless."
They do, but that wasn't really my main point though. Still, could I please get quotes of the AO members being "treated as kill-on-sight targets by basically everyone"?
>Twice now in game we've seen them launch organized invasions. The first time was during Diluc's Story Quest where they attacked Mondstadt
I... genuinely don't remember any AO involvement in Diluc's story quest, it was so long ago, I need to watch it on YT. But as for Natlan, the fact that the Lord of the Night actually agreed to help is a proof enough that they didn't have ill intentions against the nation or its people. They just wanted to distract them, so I wouldn't *really* call it an "invasion".
>"There's no reason to believe that invasions like this haven't happened in the 500 years prior."
Why would such invasions happen, though ? How would they AO benefit from them given their goals ? Why would Dainsleif be unaware of them, if he states that the AO never openly invaded anyone before Natlan ? Why would Mavuika and Iansan tell that the AO is always secretive, if they constantly invade nations for centuries ? Can't agree with what you said here.
>"The Order is also known to be responsible for the belligerent mobilization of Hilichurls toward populated areas....Even if not directly commanded to, we know that Hilichurls regularly attack trade wagons"
Was it really said that Hilicurls attack happen due to Abyss Order influence ? Could you send statements confirming what you said here if it's so ? I only remember that Abyss Mages (who aren't necessarily a part of the AO) can talk to churls and bend them to their will either using charisma or mind control.
>"If they are in charge and ordering these attacks, it's hard to argue that they're blameless"
They certinally can't be called blameless that's for sure. I think writers will use what Enjou said about only a small part of AO doing the Prince/Princess personal bidding to clear them from all this stuff. It's just, the narrative loves convey that MC and Dain hate the AO A LOT, which I don't really buy. I'd like the writers to explore AO crimes if they are actually wicked, cause so far, all of the AO's shit just pales in comparison to the Fatui's deeds. Imho, HP are by far the best fraction currently, the latter two want to overthrow them, but if they do, someone will have to step in, and their own agenda and methods that they plan to use to handle all the shit that happens to Teyvat is unknown. So it's hard to empathize with the Fatui and one of the two AO's intends.
QueenAra22026-01-27 20:05
>I don't agree with your interpretation here. "Enemies of surface civilization" in the context means that they are a foe to Heveanly Principles and the rule of gods
No, they mean all of surface civilization. We see the abyss order try to attack Mondastadt. And lest we forget, the Dvalin situation got so bad *because* the abyss order was being the devil on his shoulder telling him ti attack Mondstadt.
In Sumeru, they attacked the Pari and Order of Skeptics to open a seal to an abyssal rift.
Then we have Enjou and the abyss order making a deal with the Vishaps in Enkanomiya only to betray the vishaps when the abyssal power the abyss order brought started poisoning the vishaps.
The Abyss Order is very much not a good or even neutral organization.
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 20:31
1) I don't see how their attempt to turn Dvalin in a living weapon affects my reasoning for them to not be enemies of "all of surface civilization" and how it doesn't align with their goals at all.
2) I can't say anything about that, I haven't finished this WQ lol. I hate the desert.
3) Wasn't that just Enjou's personal thing ? I don't remember the quest it too well, but he did say that he wasn't executing someone's order, did he not ?
4) I never tried to depict them as good or neutral, though. I only asserted that they aren't as devious as people like to believe. Didn't I say that in the last paragraph.
Harouki2026-01-27 21:05
Klee: I hurt someone with my bombs…
Jean: What!? What happened!? Where are they? Do they need treatment?
Traveller: it was an Abyss Mage.
Jean: Oh. All right then. Please be more careful in the future.
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 21:07
Nah, this is actually funny.
Arctic_The_Hunter2026-01-27 15:17
Meh. The Tanit tribe was small and localized, and we maybe took responsibility for half the kills. The Abyss Order has been active for hundreds of years and we know that they come into frequent contact with humans and are generally aggressive. Our Traveler *might* have more direct kills (speculative), but even 1 incidental death per year from the Abyss Order would massively outweigh anything we’ve done.
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 15:27
Yeah, I am not saying that Travaler is more violent than AO overall haha, I am taking about AS personally. But tbh, I do think that Travaler has a bunch of kills, for me it doesn't make any sense for them to just knock out dudes who do and will attempt to kill them in the future. Plus I doubt many can survive being slashed by a sword. Though I don't really see a problem with this, a bunch of MCs kill their opponents and people generally don't see anything wrong with that.
TheScalieDragon2026-01-28 04:29
Technically Abyss Sibling caused the 500 Calamity so they have a higher kill count indirectly
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-28 07:43
With everything we know so far, would you objectively blame them for what other people did ?
ixyhlqq2026-01-27 12:17
Oh I was kinda wondering what happened if you chose not to fight... Felt kinda guilty after realizing that we went beyond just teaching him a lesson/scaring him off.
oldmonk_972026-01-27 14:07
still objectivly the better outcome to die by our hands, cuz they return to irmunsul. if rifthounds get to them its gg. their soul/memory has a chance of getting corrupted i think
RagnarokAeon2026-01-28 02:08
Yeah. The game is kind of inconsistent in deciding which crimes are worthy of death.
Ronin who lost his mind and dueling to the death (and thus killing) random passerbyers and asks for death, kept alive and turned into a sparring buddy.
Random dudes from a sword clan dueling you? Death it is.
floricel_1122026-01-27 13:50
The only sad thing about it is the rifthounds stealing my kill if you decide to let him go
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 10:04
This demonstrates that HoH was rewritten. He basically says that as an agent of HoH he works for Dottore, which is kinda funny considering the current narrative.
DeagleTC2026-01-27 10:19
the previous head of the HoH was on good terms with dottore
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 10:25
She was, but that was like 10+ years ago and Arle immediately burnt the bridges between HoH and Dottore after taking over.
Entire-Plan9352026-01-27 11:32
Yeah, but as shown by the Inazuma shrine maiden quest, many still follow the old Knave and are even unaware of anything changing. Alphonso has probably left HoH while Crucabena was still alive
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 12:05
Not sure about that, given how he talks about HoH, it sounds more like Arle's version of it, than Crucabena's.
>Alphonso has probably left HoH while Crucabena was still alive
Did he leave it though ? I don't remember the quest very well, but iirc he said that he was waiting for orders from HoH and then was tasked with capturing aranaras for Dottore.
Entire-Plan9352026-01-27 12:14
He has been farting around Vimara for quite a while. By saying he left HoH, I meant he left Fontaine and started working for someone else (Dottore). I also think that he does describe the old HoH. I don't think we have ever heard Lyney or the others talk all that nonsense. Either way absolutely nothing points to the HoH being rewritten, especially that when that quest came out they probably already begun working on Fontaine
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 12:32
I doubt that one can just stop working for HoH, especially considering what we've seen in Arle's quest and how they track all the members. And his behaviour just shows that he's more extreme about his job than the others.
Tbh, it's possible to argue that he's much older than he looks and as a trained agent, at some point he was sold out to join Dottore's squad. Cause I think it's strange for a HoH spy to take orders from another Harbinger.
roflanrofler2026-01-27 13:26
Orest and Katarina were raised in HoH too, but they work for different harbingers. Katarina for Pulcinella and Orest for Dottore, I believe
roflanrofler2026-01-27 13:24
He is a sleeper agent
saberjun2026-01-27 15:26
Japanese soldier who fought another twenty years after WW2 ended
TailorUnlikely99802026-01-27 15:28
Alright, that's funny.
cym1042026-01-27 12:51
reminder that the playable Arlecchino that we got now likely got a very big lore change just before the market drop.
all previous mentions of the "The Knave" character are likely meant to refer to the (now) former head of HotH, Crucabena .
StephanMok11232026-01-27 14:02
Crucabena is the one of the most random and one-dimensionally evil character in the Fatui, one who literally no other harbinger ever mentioned about, both before and after the quest. In fact the recent Columbina voicelines *almost* made it look like the writers forgot that Arle just ascended like, several decades ago (or maybe Columbina just spent so long bothering Tsaritsa alone or something before she bothered anyone else). If any harbinger had been retconned hard I'd bet Arlecchino is one of them
But then again the fact that they had Arlecchino being portrayed to be so irredeemably evil before the quest also made no sense, like did the writers really expect there to be no fandom resistance pulling for someone like that?? I'm really curious to know what happened behind the scenes regarding Arlecchino, like were they always planning on Crucabena but went too hard on the lore misdirections, or did they retcon Perry from something far more evil
Coralenko2026-01-27 14:10
In Inazuma, there was a hidden quest about one of the HoH's spies who wanted to run away but was chased by other HoH members. The quest wasn't pretty but in 4.0 (you can check out the logs on Genshin wiki) they added an NPC that tells you that actually there were two Knives and the bad guys were working under the old Knave and Arle didn't know about them. That's a bit white washy if you ask me and the fact that it was added years after Inazuma and right before Arle becomes playable tells me that it is in fact retcon.
Brighborn2026-01-27 14:44
How they can be work under the old Knave if she dead like 10 years?
Coralenko2026-01-27 15:05
Well, they were more loyal to the old Knave so they went rogue, it turns out
Nartellar2026-01-27 15:13
She dead but her ideology lives on in some of her former subordinates.
Euphoric_Gur8282026-01-27 19:05
My HC is that they worked under old Knave who is pretty loyal to her Majesty (Source: Katarina), Perrie took over, they despise how the New House changed it's ideals (considering the one who own the orphanage have zero loyalty to Tsaritsa) then decided to make a new orphanage (which will be Tsaritsa centered) of it's own lol.
1wbah2026-01-27 18:16
Even with that facts there are people who think it's not a retcon...
TOH-Fan152026-01-27 14:35
Was it actually several decades ago? Didn’t Freminet’s bio mention that he joined the House shortly before Arlecchino took over?
yaysyu2026-01-27 16:05
Yep. Arlecchino is young. Probably in her mid 20s lol
Zek7h35an52026-01-27 16:30
I always felt like Arlecchino is one of the youngest Harbingers specifically because of that. There's realistically a VERY short timeframe between when Arlecchino escapes the HoTH, and when Freminet joins, and an even shorter timeframe between when he joins and when Arlecchino takes over, given Lyney and Lynette have to join pretty soon after that.
Assuming Freminet, Lyney, Lynette are all 18, that means roughly 8-12 years are when they joined, given they studied under Cesar explicitly to put said skills to use in the HoTH, and they look pretty young in the cinematic we see, younger then a pre-teen. So already, just 10-6 years of a gap. But we can cut that even shorter if we take Freminet's Character Stories into account. We still don't get any explicit time frames to work with, but given Freminet is able to speak pretty fluently means he's likely over 5 years old, which cuts our gap from 10-6 years to just 5-1.
We never really get a understanding of how long Freminet was in the HoTH before Arlecchino took over, we can assume Arlecchino was at least 18 when the events that would set in motion her rise as the head of HoTH and 4th Harbinger, but we don't know how long the gap between killing Clervie and killing Crucabina really was, but again, going off of everything I've gone through, at the oldest she's 23, at the youngest 19 when she takes over, then by the time the story take place in, would be between 31-27
TOH-Fan152026-01-28 02:21
I believe it was about a year after Clervie died (presumably from her throwing herself onto Peruere’s sword rather than forcing one to kill the other) before Peruere felt ready to kill Crucabena. Might have seen it in Arlecchino’s character bio, but I can’t remember.
Zek7h35an52026-01-28 02:25
The Genshin Wiki says it was 1 year in between Clervie's death and Arlecchino killing Crucabena, but they cite Arlecchino's Vision story for that claim and nothing I saw in her Vision story backed that up. It _sounds_ right, don't get me wrong, but I didn't want to make any definitive claims.
Euphoric_Gur8282026-01-28 07:17
Actually, it's from her SQ epilogue.
> Freminet: "Father" came to check up on us two days ago and told us about what happened with Crucabena and Clervie. Actually, I... I've met Crucabena before.
> Paimon: Wait, what? You've met the former Knave?
> Freminet: ***Crucabena died a year after Clervie.*** It was during the year between their deaths that I joined the House of the Hearth.
IlliasTallin2026-01-28 01:57
"Joins" is certainly one way to put how Freminet ended up in the House of Hearth.
99cent-tea2026-01-27 18:25
And Crucabena was never mentioned by anyone ever again
Not by Signora or Scaramouche or Pierro and definitely not by Dottore who gained the most out of their transactional relationship of child test subjects
They never planned for Crucabena in the first place
QueenAra22026-01-27 19:50
>Not by Signora or Scaramouche
Weren't they out of the fatui/dead by the time Crucabena would've been relevant?
Like, it's not as if there's been a reason to bring Crucabena up. She's dead as doornails and has been for a decade in universe.
99cent-tea2026-01-27 20:04
No reason no but they were plenty alive
When Arlecchino walked up the steps to join the Fatui in her animated short both of them were there, this is all pre-Traveler era
QueenAra22026-01-27 20:08
Yes, but the main point is neither one had no reason to bring up some dead harbinger from a decade ago.
Euphoric_Gur8282026-01-27 18:47
Idk man, old voiceline direction did hinted at Arle being "one-dimentional evil who pretend to be nice"
But if that's the case, hyv surely did a lot of unnecessary tweaks (and fumbled hard on that). Fortune Slip always put her in neutral state, the Fatui soldiers mentioned the Teacher (the one who planned to genocide Watatsumi ppl to collect orphans + the one who threatened Lyudochka) acting on his own already (when we helped Momoyo escape, **I used pre-Fontaine lore source material btw**).
> Pavel: Agh, I never thought that our operational plans would be leaked. That's some awful luck!
> Ilyin: Exactly! Also, I heard that the Teacher was summoned back to Snezhnaya, but that the Watatsumi Island operation is still going ahead.
> Ilyin: *Don't you think the Teacher is acting a bit too independently? He didn't report this operation to Lady Arlecchino, did he?*
> Pavel: *That's true. This is his own idea. You know what? I've got a bad feeling about this...*
> Ilyin: Are you saying that if we fail, the Teacher's just going to pin all the blame on us?
Which is why I don't mind 4.0 lore drop at all. They followed up in the Teacher's "betrayal" which already mentioned in Fortune Slip.
Alphonso and Katarina also kinda contradictory with Tartaglia's voiceline, those kids willing to die for her Majesty yet Childe spoke about Arle being insane and will betray the Tsaritsa.
> Katarina: If he's still alive... As a Fatuus loyal to the Tsaritsa, I'll hunt this traitor down and kill him, wherever he goes or hides.
> Katarina: If he is no longer in this world... As his older sister, I will embrace the inevitable fate of every Fatuus and will be proud of him.
> Katarina: But if she betrays the Tsaritsa for fear of death... I hope she doesn't think of me.
> Trofin Snezhevich: Assuming they are still alive, then they would have betrayed Her Majesty already. If they're dead... I'd rather not know about it.
> Trofin Snezhevich: I see. Got it. You won't see me again. I'm not returning to the Fatui, either, since I blew my mission and brought shame to my "siblings."
> Childe: "But I don't like her at all. If she stood to benefit from betraying others, *she'd turn against the Tsaritsa in a heartbeat.* There isn't a sane bone in her body."
[No Childe wasn't wrong about this one. Arle indeed held zero loyalty to her Majesty. Still a matter of "when" tho]
What's interesting is that Childe's voiceline being added before Alphonso (Sumeru) debut. Which is why "retcon" accusation is pretty debatable imo.
Maybe they tried to put 2 Knave to solve the plot hole caused by these lore drops, but if that's the case.... Crucabena should've been written more properly. She feels like a plot device to make Perrie a saint in comparison and that's it. They didn't even bother to connect her story to Fatui lore.
I would like to think that perhaps the writers having some clash regarding Arle's character direction, hence why Alphonso's mention of the House teachings were kinda similar to current Arle when it shouldn't be the case.
> 1. [Trofin Snezhevich: "Youngster, you should enjoy childhood, do what you like, see what you want to see. But also remember the dark days..." ]
> Basically Current Arlecchino also let her kids to be free to pursue their passionate career they want (Lyney as magician) , playing around like other normal kids, and having different opinion from her (see what you want to see).
> **Lyney Fatui Introduction**
> "In the end, a child must grow up, and they must surpass their parents. Only thus may a family flourish. When that day comes... I look forward to hearing what 'family' means to him."
> 2. [Trofin Snezhevich: That's the House's teachings. Because facing the darker side of life is inevitable for grown-ups, you need to be prepared as a child, so you can *protect yourself and those you love.*]
> **Alphonso's scattered note:**
> *In our left hand is the shield that protects our home, and our right wields the sword that is the will of the polar star.*
> **Arlecchino's constellation (which prob contain her speech to new members):**
> "You Shall Become a New Member of Our Family...
> *You Shall Love and Protect Each Other Henceforth...*
> For Alone, We Are as Good as Dead..."
> The only slight difference is that Arle isn't the type to told her kids to dwell in the past, but looking forward to the future instead. Contradicting the:
> "But also remember the dark days..."
> However, judging from the dialogue afterwards, this could be interpreted as "You remember the old days to prepare yourself for your future (adulthood)" which is pretty Arlecchino-like (depending on her past to change the House rules, building new future for her kids,)
> Also....the most importantly;
> **Alphonso's HotH teachings**
> "I'm the evil amidst good, the poison amidst the herbs, the wolf in sheep's clothing, the mercury in a golden chalice..."
> **More about Arlecchino III voicelines:**
"The House of the Hearth begs favors from no one — like a spider, we hunt for what we want."
> Different but the meanings kinda rings the same bell to me ngl (Wolf in sheep's clothing to everyone outside the House).
Her lore parallels with Alphonso's is pretty interesting (bcz it's the only lore released after Lazzo) but none talked about it, so idk if I might be coping and stretching way too hard here lol. But idc, gonna yap about it anyway
drewberryblueberry2026-01-28 04:51
Not even several decades ago. Freminet was already at the House of the Hearth when Arlecchino took over.
IlliasTallin2026-01-27 20:10
Reminder that we have zero evidence of this one way or the other.
StephanMok11232026-01-28 04:47
True. That's why I'm curious cuz there are huge logical gaps either way
IlliasTallin2026-01-28 05:09
"Huge." Okay
StephanMok11232026-01-28 07:10
Well what do you think then
IlliasTallin2026-01-28 07:12
I can't develop a thought unless you say what these huge logical gaps are.
StephanMok11232026-01-28 07:24
Welp on one end if she's retconned then it'd explain why no one ever mentioned Crucabena before and after her quest and why Scara and Childe called him a wolf in sheep's clothing, but that'd mean Hoyo intended to release her as an evil manipulative child soldier producer and not expect any backlash
If she's not retconned then it'd mean they really intended to have Crucabena as the bad guy all along, yet they failed to provide any background, logic, context and mentions of her actions beyond just making her irredeemably evil on the quest. It'd also be weird in the context of Columbina's voice lines since she seemed to be one of Bina's earlier friends though Arle just joined like, a few decades ago at most, like, maybe it's just an oversight but at the same time you would've thought that the writers have a more elaborate timeline planned out somewhere in their office.
I'm not saying that she must've been retconned but I believe that if any harbinger has been retconned, she's one of the most likely candidates. Would appreciate your thoughts
IlliasTallin2026-01-28 07:33
>Scara and Childe called her a wolf in sheep's clothing
As far back as 1.0 with Klee and Noelle, character lines have been shown to be unreliable. Characters shown their bias and how the world is through their eyes. Childe explained that he was fed lies about Arlecchino and Wanderer has a low opinion on just about everyone.
>
It'd also be weird in the context of Columbina's voice lines since she seemed to be one of Bina's earlier friends though Arle just joined like, a few decades ago at most
Columbina explained this as she never considered any of the harbingers to be her friend, just people to whom she had transactional relationships.
>
Welp on one end if she's retconned then it'd explain why no one ever mentioned Crucabena.
>intended to have Crucabena as the bad guy all along, yet they failed to provide any background, logic, context and mentions of her actions beyond just making her irredeemably evil on the quest.
I can understand this, but I also dont particularly mind/care if not every single villain is fleshed out, Some people are just evil. She died 10/15 years ago and all relevancy of her to the current House of Hearth has been scrubbed by Arlecchino, not wanting anyone more than necessary to remember her.
Euphoric_Gur8282026-01-28 07:49
> I can understand this, but I also dont particularly mind/care if not every single villain is fleshed out, Some people are just evil.
Idk but this far Hyv never created a harbinger with zero lore relevance. All of them are low-key tied to Teyvat lore and story (except Capitano who just a regular knight smh. But even in the end he got a role on Natlan's Leyline)
Even Dottore who is evil had his own motivation and lore implications which explained us about his motive, that he also want to fight against Fate (HP) like Tsaritsa does.
Crucabena having zero character lore depth feels jarring in comparison. I still think that there might be more to her than we thought, such as how HotH is based from an orphanage under same name during Crimson Dynasty, coincidence of Frithr (pink haired kid who talked to Tholindis) having similar hair color to both Cruca and Clervie, and Cryo Gemstone relation to Arle's weekly boss archive.
For someone being "retcon victim scapegoat" Hyv surely hint at many suspicious lore clues of her. But idk maybe I'm just coping at this point. Hyv doesn't have good track record on *consistent lore buildup.*
YukioKushinada2026-01-27 13:23
What quest is this? I dont seem to remember this npc
Suluith2026-01-27 13:27
Aranara Questline
YukioKushinada2026-01-27 13:37
Oh no wonder why i cant remember 💀 the quest is so long my brain just shuts off ajsjjs is it the main questline or some sub branch/optional quests?
StephanMok11232026-01-27 14:08
You could've just taken a break... But I can't entirely blame you on how confusing the naming was
He's a hidden exploration objective at the very end of the quest, the hidden spy who's been helping Fatui kidnap children from the village to lure out the Aranara. He's very conflicted on what he did and when Traveller finally found him out (after we distracted Paimon to go somewhere else), we're presented with a choice to whether execute him on the spot or exile him, after which he'll die wandering and being mauled by Rifthounds. You can find his elegy on where he died either way. A really interesting NPC because for what he's done, the Aranara actually called him "a child bearing the scent of snow, with a kind heart" or something. A flawed yet ever so humane executioner, not unlike Rerir
floricel_1122026-01-27 13:50
Naaah, he absolutely had it coming. He used children as bait, lured them to a marana infested forest to lure out the aranara, so he could capture them and present them TO DOTTORE, so he could use them as test subjects
floricel_1122026-01-27 13:50
Proudest kill in my game
ixyhlqq2026-01-27 18:13
You're probably right, I'm glad we sent Paimon away before it though.
Jehphg2026-01-27 13:55
given his age, he's probably her "brother" rather than one of her kids. one of those either given to Dottore or the ones Crucabena trained for foreign ops
ixyhlqq2026-01-27 18:11
Good point, someone else mentioned that since Arle cut ties with Dottore this guy is probably raised under Crucabena.
C4R_N3L_14N2026-01-27 22:21
This speech of his makes me think he took a lesson from Darkwing Duck.
SpiritVDC2026-01-28 00:23
Snezhevich: "I am evil incarnate! I'm the mastermind of schemes beyond your understanding! I'll destroy you and everything you love!"
Traveler: "Bro I have literally killed shit that could turn you to red mist with a single swing, sit tf down"
Fullpotentialk2026-01-28 04:00
The definitely retconned her!
TheScalieDragon2026-01-28 04:27
Isn't he under Dottore, like I'm pretty sure he was part of Dottore unit cause it was Dottore scheme of trying to use the kids as bait for aranara
ixyhlqq2026-01-28 04:57
He was doing it for Dottore but mentioned he was from the House of the Hearth.
Commentaires
Rifthounds rip and tear you apart with no qualms about whether you are alive or dead during it. If the in-game descriptions of the corrosion mechanic are anything to go off of, it's an agonizing, bloody way to go.
But nah, It's funny how Travaler got like 100 times more kills than Abyss Sibling who is depicted as a radical.
We don't see a lot of their shenanigans on-screen, but it can be assumed that shenanigans were a thing.
>"treated as kill-on-sight targets by basically everyone"
Cause they literally look the same as monsters of True Abyss, I guess. But Mavuika says that Natlan had no quarrel with AO until after the fake invasion: "That's what I'd like to know as well. Historically, Natlan has not been a hotbed of Abyss Order activity, and we have no particular quarrel with them." And the same can be applied to many other nations. So it's not really true. Could you send the quotes that make you say that ? Perhaps I am forgetting something.
>"You don't get that kinda rep just by being a small-time cult"
They are referred to as one, though:
1. "One little sect versus the entire nation of war?"
2. "Also, their numbers are much higher than expected. Their organization appears to have grown considerably, but because they're usually so secretive, this is the first we're learning of it." - implied that before they didn't have enough man power to distract the tribes with fake attacks before.
3. "I've heard of the Abyss Order, but this is the first time I've known them to take organized action on such a large scale." - basically means that AO never had any open confrontations with any organization.
4. "Never before have I seen the Abyss Order take action on such a large scale..." - the context of them sending a platoon to a tribe.
Also, remember that "Abyss Order Stronghold", the destruction of which was considered to be a devastating blow to AO had only several platoons of soldiers, which Dain and Lumine (MC for me) easily cut through. Here's the quote: "All these years, the Abyss Order has managed to either stay hidden or fiercely defend their position... This may be the first chance I've ever had to finally make a serious dent in their forces."
>"but it can be assumed that shenanigans were a thing"
Indubitably, I am not trying to make them look like good guys, haha, but they aren't a devious organization as well. Given everything we know so far, for 500 years, the only big operations they had: 1 - getting the eye of FFT to lunch the loom of fate, 2 - an attempt to force Mondstadt divine beasts into submission and use them as living weapons in the future war against the HP, dropping this idea after it failed, 3- pretend to invade Natlan without actually hurting it's people, seeking to distract them to strike a deal with the Lord of the Night. I am sure they caused more small shenanigans every now and then in the 500 year long timespan of their existence, but in a big scale that's pretty much it.
Funny how my joke trigged an actual lore discussion, but I am willing to participate, I like talking about the story. Still, my point was that Aether hasn't killed anyone yet, and I don't know why people disagreed cause presumption of innocence exists and Columbina's words kind suggest that.
Twice now in game we've seen them launch organized invasions. The first time was during Diluc's Story Quest where they attacked Mondstadt. The second was the Natlan feint. There's no reason to believe that invasions like this haven't happened in the 500 years prior. While casualties were few in both cases, if this was typical for Abyss Order attacks I doubt they'd be taken seriously as a threat. But they clearly are.
The Order is also known to be responsible for the belligerent mobilization of Hilichurls toward populated areas. Even if not directly commanded to, we know that Hilichurls regularly attack trade wagons and such since we personally rescue several during our commissions. But what about the attacks we're not there to handle?
As for whether the Abyss Sibling personally got their hands dirty... Possibly not - but there's still a question of how morally culpable they were for the damage that WAS done. If they are in charge and ordering these attacks, it's hard to argue that they're blameless.
They do, but that wasn't really my main point though. Still, could I please get quotes of the AO members being "treated as kill-on-sight targets by basically everyone"?
>Twice now in game we've seen them launch organized invasions. The first time was during Diluc's Story Quest where they attacked Mondstadt
I... genuinely don't remember any AO involvement in Diluc's story quest, it was so long ago, I need to watch it on YT. But as for Natlan, the fact that the Lord of the Night actually agreed to help is a proof enough that they didn't have ill intentions against the nation or its people. They just wanted to distract them, so I wouldn't *really* call it an "invasion".
>"There's no reason to believe that invasions like this haven't happened in the 500 years prior."
Why would such invasions happen, though ? How would they AO benefit from them given their goals ? Why would Dainsleif be unaware of them, if he states that the AO never openly invaded anyone before Natlan ? Why would Mavuika and Iansan tell that the AO is always secretive, if they constantly invade nations for centuries ? Can't agree with what you said here.
>"The Order is also known to be responsible for the belligerent mobilization of Hilichurls toward populated areas....Even if not directly commanded to, we know that Hilichurls regularly attack trade wagons"
Was it really said that Hilicurls attack happen due to Abyss Order influence ? Could you send statements confirming what you said here if it's so ? I only remember that Abyss Mages (who aren't necessarily a part of the AO) can talk to churls and bend them to their will either using charisma or mind control.
>"If they are in charge and ordering these attacks, it's hard to argue that they're blameless"
They certinally can't be called blameless that's for sure. I think writers will use what Enjou said about only a small part of AO doing the Prince/Princess personal bidding to clear them from all this stuff. It's just, the narrative loves convey that MC and Dain hate the AO A LOT, which I don't really buy. I'd like the writers to explore AO crimes if they are actually wicked, cause so far, all of the AO's shit just pales in comparison to the Fatui's deeds. Imho, HP are by far the best fraction currently, the latter two want to overthrow them, but if they do, someone will have to step in, and their own agenda and methods that they plan to use to handle all the shit that happens to Teyvat is unknown. So it's hard to empathize with the Fatui and one of the two AO's intends.
No, they mean all of surface civilization. We see the abyss order try to attack Mondastadt. And lest we forget, the Dvalin situation got so bad *because* the abyss order was being the devil on his shoulder telling him ti attack Mondstadt.
In Sumeru, they attacked the Pari and Order of Skeptics to open a seal to an abyssal rift.
Then we have Enjou and the abyss order making a deal with the Vishaps in Enkanomiya only to betray the vishaps when the abyssal power the abyss order brought started poisoning the vishaps.
The Abyss Order is very much not a good or even neutral organization.
2) I can't say anything about that, I haven't finished this WQ lol. I hate the desert.
3) Wasn't that just Enjou's personal thing ? I don't remember the quest it too well, but he did say that he wasn't executing someone's order, did he not ?
4) I never tried to depict them as good or neutral, though. I only asserted that they aren't as devious as people like to believe. Didn't I say that in the last paragraph.
Jean: What!? What happened!? Where are they? Do they need treatment?
Traveller: it was an Abyss Mage.
Jean: Oh. All right then. Please be more careful in the future.
Ronin who lost his mind and dueling to the death (and thus killing) random passerbyers and asks for death, kept alive and turned into a sparring buddy.
Random dudes from a sword clan dueling you? Death it is.
>Alphonso has probably left HoH while Crucabena was still alive
Did he leave it though ? I don't remember the quest very well, but iirc he said that he was waiting for orders from HoH and then was tasked with capturing aranaras for Dottore.
Tbh, it's possible to argue that he's much older than he looks and as a trained agent, at some point he was sold out to join Dottore's squad. Cause I think it's strange for a HoH spy to take orders from another Harbinger.
all previous mentions of the "The Knave" character are likely meant to refer to the (now) former head of HotH, Crucabena .
But then again the fact that they had Arlecchino being portrayed to be so irredeemably evil before the quest also made no sense, like did the writers really expect there to be no fandom resistance pulling for someone like that?? I'm really curious to know what happened behind the scenes regarding Arlecchino, like were they always planning on Crucabena but went too hard on the lore misdirections, or did they retcon Perry from something far more evil
Assuming Freminet, Lyney, Lynette are all 18, that means roughly 8-12 years are when they joined, given they studied under Cesar explicitly to put said skills to use in the HoTH, and they look pretty young in the cinematic we see, younger then a pre-teen. So already, just 10-6 years of a gap. But we can cut that even shorter if we take Freminet's Character Stories into account. We still don't get any explicit time frames to work with, but given Freminet is able to speak pretty fluently means he's likely over 5 years old, which cuts our gap from 10-6 years to just 5-1.
We never really get a understanding of how long Freminet was in the HoTH before Arlecchino took over, we can assume Arlecchino was at least 18 when the events that would set in motion her rise as the head of HoTH and 4th Harbinger, but we don't know how long the gap between killing Clervie and killing Crucabina really was, but again, going off of everything I've gone through, at the oldest she's 23, at the youngest 19 when she takes over, then by the time the story take place in, would be between 31-27
> Freminet: "Father" came to check up on us two days ago and told us about what happened with Crucabena and Clervie. Actually, I... I've met Crucabena before.
> Paimon: Wait, what? You've met the former Knave?
> Freminet: ***Crucabena died a year after Clervie.*** It was during the year between their deaths that I joined the House of the Hearth.
Not by Signora or Scaramouche or Pierro and definitely not by Dottore who gained the most out of their transactional relationship of child test subjects
They never planned for Crucabena in the first place
Weren't they out of the fatui/dead by the time Crucabena would've been relevant?
Like, it's not as if there's been a reason to bring Crucabena up. She's dead as doornails and has been for a decade in universe.
When Arlecchino walked up the steps to join the Fatui in her animated short both of them were there, this is all pre-Traveler era
But if that's the case, hyv surely did a lot of unnecessary tweaks (and fumbled hard on that). Fortune Slip always put her in neutral state, the Fatui soldiers mentioned the Teacher (the one who planned to genocide Watatsumi ppl to collect orphans + the one who threatened Lyudochka) acting on his own already (when we helped Momoyo escape, **I used pre-Fontaine lore source material btw**).
> Pavel: Agh, I never thought that our operational plans would be leaked. That's some awful luck!
> Ilyin: Exactly! Also, I heard that the Teacher was summoned back to Snezhnaya, but that the Watatsumi Island operation is still going ahead.
> Ilyin: *Don't you think the Teacher is acting a bit too independently? He didn't report this operation to Lady Arlecchino, did he?*
> Pavel: *That's true. This is his own idea. You know what? I've got a bad feeling about this...*
> Ilyin: Are you saying that if we fail, the Teacher's just going to pin all the blame on us?
Which is why I don't mind 4.0 lore drop at all. They followed up in the Teacher's "betrayal" which already mentioned in Fortune Slip.
Alphonso and Katarina also kinda contradictory with Tartaglia's voiceline, those kids willing to die for her Majesty yet Childe spoke about Arle being insane and will betray the Tsaritsa.
> Katarina: If he's still alive... As a Fatuus loyal to the Tsaritsa, I'll hunt this traitor down and kill him, wherever he goes or hides.
> Katarina: If he is no longer in this world... As his older sister, I will embrace the inevitable fate of every Fatuus and will be proud of him.
> Katarina: But if she betrays the Tsaritsa for fear of death... I hope she doesn't think of me.
> Trofin Snezhevich: Assuming they are still alive, then they would have betrayed Her Majesty already. If they're dead... I'd rather not know about it.
> Trofin Snezhevich: I see. Got it. You won't see me again. I'm not returning to the Fatui, either, since I blew my mission and brought shame to my "siblings."
> Childe: "But I don't like her at all. If she stood to benefit from betraying others, *she'd turn against the Tsaritsa in a heartbeat.* There isn't a sane bone in her body."
[No Childe wasn't wrong about this one. Arle indeed held zero loyalty to her Majesty. Still a matter of "when" tho]
What's interesting is that Childe's voiceline being added before Alphonso (Sumeru) debut. Which is why "retcon" accusation is pretty debatable imo.
Maybe they tried to put 2 Knave to solve the plot hole caused by these lore drops, but if that's the case.... Crucabena should've been written more properly. She feels like a plot device to make Perrie a saint in comparison and that's it. They didn't even bother to connect her story to Fatui lore.
I would like to think that perhaps the writers having some clash regarding Arle's character direction, hence why Alphonso's mention of the House teachings were kinda similar to current Arle when it shouldn't be the case.
> 1. [Trofin Snezhevich: "Youngster, you should enjoy childhood, do what you like, see what you want to see. But also remember the dark days..." ]
> Basically Current Arlecchino also let her kids to be free to pursue their passionate career they want (Lyney as magician) , playing around like other normal kids, and having different opinion from her (see what you want to see).
> **Lyney Fatui Introduction**
> "In the end, a child must grow up, and they must surpass their parents. Only thus may a family flourish. When that day comes... I look forward to hearing what 'family' means to him."
> 2. [Trofin Snezhevich: That's the House's teachings. Because facing the darker side of life is inevitable for grown-ups, you need to be prepared as a child, so you can *protect yourself and those you love.*]
> **Alphonso's scattered note:**
> *In our left hand is the shield that protects our home, and our right wields the sword that is the will of the polar star.*
> **Arlecchino's constellation (which prob contain her speech to new members):**
> "You Shall Become a New Member of Our Family...
> *You Shall Love and Protect Each Other Henceforth...*
> For Alone, We Are as Good as Dead..."
> The only slight difference is that Arle isn't the type to told her kids to dwell in the past, but looking forward to the future instead. Contradicting the:
> "But also remember the dark days..."
> However, judging from the dialogue afterwards, this could be interpreted as "You remember the old days to prepare yourself for your future (adulthood)" which is pretty Arlecchino-like (depending on her past to change the House rules, building new future for her kids,)
> Also....the most importantly;
> **Alphonso's HotH teachings**
> "I'm the evil amidst good, the poison amidst the herbs, the wolf in sheep's clothing, the mercury in a golden chalice..."
> **More about Arlecchino III voicelines:**
"The House of the Hearth begs favors from no one — like a spider, we hunt for what we want."
> Different but the meanings kinda rings the same bell to me ngl (Wolf in sheep's clothing to everyone outside the House).
Her lore parallels with Alphonso's is pretty interesting (bcz it's the only lore released after Lazzo) but none talked about it, so idk if I might be coping and stretching way too hard here lol. But idc, gonna yap about it anyway
If she's not retconned then it'd mean they really intended to have Crucabena as the bad guy all along, yet they failed to provide any background, logic, context and mentions of her actions beyond just making her irredeemably evil on the quest. It'd also be weird in the context of Columbina's voice lines since she seemed to be one of Bina's earlier friends though Arle just joined like, a few decades ago at most, like, maybe it's just an oversight but at the same time you would've thought that the writers have a more elaborate timeline planned out somewhere in their office.
I'm not saying that she must've been retconned but I believe that if any harbinger has been retconned, she's one of the most likely candidates. Would appreciate your thoughts
As far back as 1.0 with Klee and Noelle, character lines have been shown to be unreliable. Characters shown their bias and how the world is through their eyes. Childe explained that he was fed lies about Arlecchino and Wanderer has a low opinion on just about everyone.
>
It'd also be weird in the context of Columbina's voice lines since she seemed to be one of Bina's earlier friends though Arle just joined like, a few decades ago at most
Columbina explained this as she never considered any of the harbingers to be her friend, just people to whom she had transactional relationships.
>
Welp on one end if she's retconned then it'd explain why no one ever mentioned Crucabena.
>intended to have Crucabena as the bad guy all along, yet they failed to provide any background, logic, context and mentions of her actions beyond just making her irredeemably evil on the quest.
I can understand this, but I also dont particularly mind/care if not every single villain is fleshed out, Some people are just evil. She died 10/15 years ago and all relevancy of her to the current House of Hearth has been scrubbed by Arlecchino, not wanting anyone more than necessary to remember her.
Idk but this far Hyv never created a harbinger with zero lore relevance. All of them are low-key tied to Teyvat lore and story (except Capitano who just a regular knight smh. But even in the end he got a role on Natlan's Leyline)
Even Dottore who is evil had his own motivation and lore implications which explained us about his motive, that he also want to fight against Fate (HP) like Tsaritsa does.
Crucabena having zero character lore depth feels jarring in comparison. I still think that there might be more to her than we thought, such as how HotH is based from an orphanage under same name during Crimson Dynasty, coincidence of Frithr (pink haired kid who talked to Tholindis) having similar hair color to both Cruca and Clervie, and Cryo Gemstone relation to Arle's weekly boss archive.
For someone being "retcon victim scapegoat" Hyv surely hint at many suspicious lore clues of her. But idk maybe I'm just coping at this point. Hyv doesn't have good track record on *consistent lore buildup.*
He's a hidden exploration objective at the very end of the quest, the hidden spy who's been helping Fatui kidnap children from the village to lure out the Aranara. He's very conflicted on what he did and when Traveller finally found him out (after we distracted Paimon to go somewhere else), we're presented with a choice to whether execute him on the spot or exile him, after which he'll die wandering and being mauled by Rifthounds. You can find his elegy on where he died either way. A really interesting NPC because for what he's done, the Aranara actually called him "a child bearing the scent of snow, with a kind heart" or something. A flawed yet ever so humane executioner, not unlike Rerir
Traveler: "Bro I have literally killed shit that could turn you to red mist with a single swing, sit tf down"