Considering Nibelung turned the Moons into weapons and HP was the one destroyed them, why the dragons cheered when their greatest enemy just destroyed their strongest weapons ?
Commentaires
-Out-Of-Print-2026-01-27 18:25
Because it mentions that the moons ended up betraying the dragons, too.
Mtebalanazy2026-01-27 18:28
Yeah as much as they hate Phanes watching the traitors who sold you out get blown up must have felt cathartic
YellowFogLights2026-01-27 18:28
The moons were the ones that didn’t intervene when HP started to take over Teyvat.
Alzusand2026-01-27 18:31
Because the moons who were supposed to be their protectors didnt do anything to oppose the HP when they were taking over teyvat wich was their homeland.
HumsterMKI2026-01-27 19:40
Basically this, the Moon sisters probably didn't think much of the Dragons. Thry were created to protect the Planet.
But the Dragon thought, that they were also protected.
Schubert1252026-01-27 20:36
You are on this planet but we do not grant you the rank of 'protected'
Take a seat, young Dragons
HumsterMKI2026-01-28 03:12
"Ahhh we are being slaughtered, HELP US!!" - Dragons
*"Moon sisters plays Rules of Nature instead"*
Blanche_Cyan2026-01-28 03:29
The task given by Nibelung to the Moon Sisters seems to have specifically been to protect the planet itself with nothing being specified about the dragons themselves, considering stuff like the Huitzilopochtli and the terrible ideology of dragons and the shortcomings that came with them Phanes probably seemed like an atractive option when it came to securing the continuous existence of the world...
It says something when you have Neuvillette questioning Nibelung's beliefs and the whole tale of Kukulkan seeing greater hopes for the future in humanity than in his own people.
Endolphine2026-01-28 01:39
[deleted]
Alzusand2026-01-28 02:10
He was friends with one of the deescenders who was human
Pristine-Pop19672026-01-28 03:29
Did humans exist in Teyvat before the HP descended?
Top-Idea-17862026-01-28 03:52
Nope, humans and other lifeforms like boars, birds and so on were all introduced by the heavenly principles
Pristine-Pop19672026-01-28 04:11
So we need to get an explanation why the moon sisters appeared in human form. Is this just the moon sisters behaving like Yae and choosing to appear human? If so, this could be seen by the Dragons as another sign of them siding with the humans.
Top-Idea-17862026-01-28 04:16
A common theory is that Nibelung based the moon sisters on the Voyager, but even that has some problems
Pristine-Pop19672026-01-28 05:03
It really is hard to say. In Columbina's character story, she shared her human experiences with her sisters which meant they were interested to hear about it. This also depicted the moon sisters as envious. So maybe they really grew more interested on the humans over dragons. We need info on Nibelung to clarify if he was really just simping for the Voyager or it was the moon sisters' preference. Surely he left a diary somewhere, Hoyo.
BeautyJester2026-01-28 02:34
What does the HP stand for ?
i kept reading Harry Potter
KONGKONG122026-01-28 02:36
Heavenly Principal
bookgrinder2026-01-28 05:23
Ms. Principal, you look so heavenly!
Alzusand2026-01-28 02:36
Heavenly principles
StephanMok11232026-01-28 04:52
Ah yes Harry Potter, my favourite Descender
HumsterMKI2026-01-28 05:20
"Harry, you are an Archon!"
x3bla2026-01-28 09:42
I kept reading health points
Sugar_Poppin2026-01-27 18:48
It literally says why in the quote.
From their POV, they're traitors. They let in a usurper, naively thinking they could coexist and didn't do anything to stop him until it was too late. Hell, they even have the appearance of the beings who are taking over their planet. (Even if that's Nib's doing.)
Cruel or not, it makes logical sense for the dragons to resent the moons for failing to protect them and /seemingly/ take the side of humanity.
Emphasis on seemingly.
The moon sisters only sin is their inaction, which lead to two main POVs that sealed their fate regardless. To Nib and the dragons, they let in and served a new master. They had to be locked away and reprogrammed. To the PO, they were potential sympathizers and tools for the dragons. They had to die. It's as simple as that.
Now would choosing a side fix anything? Not really. Best case scenario, they keep the PO in check but they would need his help against a corrupted Nib. Maybe humanity and the dragons would work together against him, promising a potential true coexistence. But I don't buy it, because the PO isn't inherently benevolent. They're paranoid. No matter what, they would have inevitably turned on the sisters and dragons until the PO had all the power.
That kinda brings us to the present day issue -- the PO is a problem. "Good intentions" are a stretch. They're just a ruler protecting their conquest at the end of the day, trying to preserve their makeshift nest for as long as possible at the cost of the inhabitants. Teyvat is just a mess and I think the PO was doomed to fail the moment they slaughtered the moons. That betrayal kinda set them on a karmic timer.
allmistake22026-01-27 19:04
I think the fact PO left the frostmoon intact indicates he didn't exactly want to destroy the moons. We know they were injured pretty bad in that fight, they likely could afford to go easy on the weaponized moons. I do agree that they are paranoid and caused a lot of problems, but I do think that originally they did care deeply about Teyvat's inhabitants. The benevolence of the angels, and the various lore sources that indicate teyvat was a paradise before the funerary year also demonstrate that. It was the introduction of outside forces, Voyager's hoyperborean rebellion, and Nibelung's abyssal return, that forced them to take drastic, heavy handed action.
Edit: not saying they made all the right decisions, or didn't go overboard, but I dont think they are wholly malicious or selfish.
Sugar_Poppin2026-01-27 19:32
I would agree, but the fact that everything between Shades, Gods, Seelies, and humans rebelled to some extent goes to show the flaws.
And it's important to note-- most of this kindness was to his own creations and not even blind loyalty could spare you. He's just protecting his own "country" and that's the bare minimum for a ruler. The PO isn't the savior or benefactor of Teyvat. They're a genuine conquerer that restructured everything to suit aliens life forms at the cost of the original inhabitants. And now the PO is willing to sacrifice even that, if any humans can survive at all. A corrupted Nib obviously isn't a better choice, but that shows how terrible the situation was. Teyvat was legit doomed.
In a way, the PO's conquest only bought it time but not eternity.
If I could compare Teyvat's fate to Durin, I would compare mini-Durin to the PO who changed the destiny of the world by supplanting the place of Nib(OG Durin). So instead of immediate Abyssal destruction, it was staved off until a third party (Traveler) could intervene for a truly different ending.
I don't think it's a surprise that every 500yrs(ish) a samara cycle ends with mass destruction via the abyss. A mini-cataclysm representing the original death Teyvat avoided with Nib. It just keeps trying to happen again. And again. And again. And again.
But I'm just in theory territory at this point. 😂
highlyregarded11552026-01-27 19:49
>theory territory
I'm fairly sure all of this is confirmed at this point, no? At least with the most recent AQ.
Sugar_Poppin2026-01-27 20:01
Some of it is implied, but later context can change everything.
For instance (bare with my fanfic) they could tell you that the PO became a paranoid bot, because the wars fragmented them and these fragments became the gods of Teyvat who collectively house the kindness, wisdom, and love the PO lost over time. And that wouldn't change anything established, but does change how we would interpret the Archon wars, Celestia, the HP, etc.
allmistake22026-01-27 20:10
That I would generally agree with. Phanes was too controlling, and like an overly authoritarian parent, alienated their creations. And while they certainly didn't care for those outside their creations, their willingness to cooperate with the moon sisters indicate at least a willingness to cooperate as long as their creations weren't threatened. After they were wounded by the abyss and lost their ability to control the world fully, they became only more controlling, likely out of fear of what humanity would do if allowed to tap into the abyss unrestricted which, is kinda valid, but still probably responded to excessively.
RaguraX2026-01-28 17:19
The PO didn’t use to be like that. It once cared deeply for the twins and the destroyed planets it encountered, but it was too much to handle so it ejected its emotions module. With only reason and strict directives left, no wonder it acted in what living creatures consider cruelty. We saw the same kind of division in Ineffa’s story quest.
ramsdit2026-01-27 19:38
From the perspective of the dragons and voyager Teyvat was already a paradise before the HP arrived. The HP is the original imposing outside force.
The HP also immediately started a 40 year war with the seven sovereigns and even the moon goddesses came to realise they had a desire to control and dominate the world. So yes, it’s fair to say the HP always acted maliciously towards Teyvat’s native inhabitants and then towards even their own creations.
allmistake22026-01-27 19:57
From the perspective of Voyager and the dragons, sure, and I won't deny that stomping out the dragons was not good, but again that's one side if the story. If the traveler' skin lore is anything to go by (my saying hp is the AI) worlds that can be terraformed and successfully seeded with life are exceedingly rare. Phanes, clearly existed for the purpose of preserving the human race, likely after the destruction of their original world. If you were in Phanes's shoes, fleeing from the abyss, looking for a habitable world and entrusted to save an entire species, would you really choose to leave, even though you may likely never find another safe haven, and would just condemn yourself and all of humanity that you protect to be consumed by the abyss? Would you effectively cause your own death and the loss of your species just to keep the moral high ground?
Also given the fact they spared the moons, and that some of the original sovereigns survived til today, it's possible that their conquest of teyvat didnt start violently. I doubt they needed 40 years to deal with the sovereigns. I wont deny they possible could have dealt with the dragons more fairly, but we also haven't heard both sides of that story either.
ramsdit2026-01-27 20:32
Even with the most flattering view you’ve given of the PO’s perspective to try justify their actions it still doesn’t mean that their actions weren’t both malicious and selfish.
They arrived and immediately started a war with the native species and then acted selfishly by putting their goal and ambition for Teyvat above all else.
imbusthul2026-01-28 07:48
That's the thing though, they didn't start immediately. They were chilling with the Moons for quite some time before terraforming the planet.
ramsdit2026-01-28 09:02
Chilling with the moons though was them deceiving the moons into thinking they were nothing more than a guest before the Moon Goddesses became aware of the HP’s true intentions to dominate Teyvat. Well, except for Sonnet who was wary from the start.
The moons seems unaware of some things though based on them never mentioning the sovereigns which is why I don’t fully believe there was ever a peaceful time of coexistence between the HP and the native dragons.
Neospanner2026-01-27 20:34
I don't think there was anything "immediate". From the latest Archon Quests (spoilered, since this thread has no spoiler tag):
>>! **Canon:** Is that what later generations call them? I see... But we did not reject them at first, nor did they seem to harbor ill-intent towards this world.!<
>>! **Canon:** We co-existed in peace. They were like a guest in our home.!<
>>! **Aria:** Slowly, however, we came to realize that our guest had a growing desire to change and dominate the world.!<
That doesn't sound like HP moved in throwing hands from day one. There was SOME period of tolerable co-existence between humans and dragons before HP decided the Sovereigns had to go. You wouldn't refer so someone who waltzes in and murders the folks in charge as "a guest in our home".
Given how ancient the beings are who are talking, this period of tolerance was likely measured across many centuries. It's possible that the Sovereigns weren't even defeated until during the Funerary War - though it's certainly likely that resentment and discontent built up well before that as HP got further and further out of hand.
ramsdit2026-01-27 20:41
The book Before Sun & Moon outlines the arrival of the PO and how they immediately started a war with the seven sovereigns. The war is then described as lasting for 40 years.
The Moon Goddesses inaction when the PO arrives is why the dragons view them as traitors a celebrated their fall as described in the original post.
Neospanner2026-01-27 20:59
The timing in Sun and Moon isn't conclusive. It would suggest that hostilities didn't break out until AFTER the Primordial One "made the world anew". We also don't know how long after.
It's unlikely that the Primordial One terraformed its chunk of the world in an afternoon (this terraformation would be necessary for the world to qualify as having been "made anew") - let alone grow the first batch of humans to be present to record all of this stuff for the book. (Though, I suppose this could have been info given to them by the angels?)
A more likely timeline:
\- HP arrives, is welcomed as a guest.
\- HP sets down roots and starts making the world human-habitable.
\- Dragons start to get antsy, because these changes are having a detrimental effect on the dragons' adaptive abilities.
\- The first few generations of humans appear after the world has been made anew.
\- The Sovereigns are no longer tolerant of HP's activities, and wage war. HP defeats them in 40 days while the awestruck humans look on from below.
\- The moon goddesses remain neutral, because technically the Sovereigns threw the first punch. This earns them the ire of dragon kind, both for welcoming HP in the first place and not stepping in when the Sovereigns needed them.
\- Time passes, and goddesses get antsy as HP becomes more paranoid and controlling.
\- Nibelung arrives, and everything goes to hell.
ramsdit2026-01-27 21:19
The time line in Before Sun & Moon is pretty clear. The first chapter describing the PO’s arrival and starting battle with the sovereigns is titled “when the doves held branches”. The chapter then describing the sovereigns as being vanquished is titled “forty years after the held branches”.
Obviously Before Sun & Moon is quite a biased source heavy of the PO propaganda and so can be questioned — but if we do decide to trust it at least for a rough timeline from the PO’s perspective then they did seek to battle the sovereigns pretty immediately.
I do like a bit more your timeline except it was also only ever the moon goddesses that welcomed them as a guest not the dragons.
It’s overall frustrating that the moon goddesses did not mention the dragons at all when meeting Columbina. We’re left with the impression that they were either completely unaware of what happened to the sovereigns or did not care (except for Sonnet but even then she only specifies Nibelung when talking about her allegiance).
Neospanner2026-01-27 21:52
A dove holding an olive branch is a symbol of peace, so it would follow that a time of war comes AFTER the period of time symbolized by doves holding branches. That's another big clue that HP's arrival was peaceful, at first. The first period, the time of held branches, was a time of peace.
It IS strange that the conflict with the Sovereigns is referenced in the same paragraph - but it's referenced again for the period of time AFTER the doves held the branches, two sections below. It's unlikely that there were two occasions where HP defeated the Sovereigns. I blame bias for this - the writers wanted to emphasize that HP was the rightful ruler, and so while there WAS a period of peace, just keep reading dear readers, and you'll see our glorious lord deal with those nasty dragons in just a bit!
A dove holding a branch COULD symbolize making landfall, as this was how Noah knew that the flood was over in the Bible. This would better support the "instant conflict" interpretation - but again, doesn't jive well with the goddesses' description of HP's arrival as peaceful.
ramsdit2026-01-27 22:46
I would agree with your second theory that rather than coming in peace it is probably meant to be a reference to Noah. In that story the dove holding the branch is Noah finding a sign of habitable land so it’s the PO first discovering Teyvat (the spaceship also does sound a lot like an ark).
But yeah the discrepancies are confusing and sometimes you don’t know which sources to trust or if we just have to wait for more information to see the full picture. There are a few other discrepancies in what the moon goddesses told Columbina compared to other sources but the biggest is of course them never mentioning the dragons.
Endolphine2026-01-28 01:45
[deleted]
ramsdit2026-01-28 09:05
Humans didn’t exist before the HP arrived.
Top-Idea-17862026-01-28 03:56
Let's also not forget the intentional exploitation of the dragon's rapid evolution to devolve them into lesser, more easily controllable forms.
TheCatInTheBat2026-01-27 20:09
They cared about those of Teyvat’s inhabitants who they put there, you mean. As far as we understand it, the PO had no business supplanting the prosperous dragon civilization that existed on Teyvat just to populate it with humans and whatever else they made.
There is an argument to be made that if the PO did not arrive, Teyvat would have had trouble regardless, because Nibelung would have come back with Abyssal corruption anyway — though we don’t have too much to go on about how corrupted he became exactly and what he would have done had he found Teyvat as he left it.
But point is still that PO took everything from the existing civilization just to shape the planet according to their will.
allmistake22026-01-27 20:13
Yes. Humanity, I mean. As I mentioned in another comment, I think it was also an issue of survival. It was either take over Teyvat so you and humanity have a place to stay, or leave, knowing you'll probably never find another suitable world, and be consumed by the abyss along with your precious cargo. I dont know how many people would choose to perish just to keep the moral high ground. Not saying it was right, but it is understandable.
TheCatInTheBat2026-01-27 20:30
I wouldn’t be that permissive with them, tbh. We have no concrete indication of a time limit involved with finding a suitable world. And to be clear, the humans of the HP’s original homeworld have probably already “died out”, mostly. There were the twins, whose nature we don’t know exactly, but they could have more than likely been just fine without the PO deciding to wipe out the planet’s existing civilization. Aside from them, humans who do not exist yet do not count for me: the HP does not get to destroy a whole people just to make place to create their own.
And that is disregarding the possiblity of some kind of coexistence with some form of humans. They were described as “a guest” by the Moons, and they could have chosen to negotiate for some way to nurture a species they desired to revive — instead, they opted to conquer their host’s world and plunge their entire civilization into ruin.
From what we’ve seen, the value assigned to the well-being of the planet’s existing inhabitants in the HP’s value function was a big 0 — if they can just terraform the planet, they do so and nothing else matters — which I will not approve of, or even entertain as valid.
allmistake22026-01-27 21:00
That's a fair point about humanity already being gone. A dead species is less valuable than a living one after all.
We still don't know Phanes side of the story though. The fact they let the moons be makes me think it isnt impossible they didn't try to negotiate at first. We've only heard the story told by people who are opposed to Phanes. Not saying they definitely did, but I dont think it can be ruled out until we get more clarity on the situation. Admittedly even if they did, it probably wouldnt have been the most fair terms they offered.
And I'm not saying I agree with all their actions. I just think the situation is a little more nuanced than Phanes being totally evil. If all they cared about was their own survival, recreating humanity would only have been a liability.
TheCatInTheBat2026-01-27 21:28
I agree that hearing all sides of the story is important, and it is certainly something I am looking forward to. I don’t think I ever described Phanes as “totally evil”, though, they are not doing harm for the fun of it, I just think their actions in taking over Teyvat — based on what information we currently have — are completely unjustifiably selfish (selfish in the sense that it serves their personal goal of reestablishing humanity, at the expense of everyone else).
Though the fact that “people who are opposed to Phanes” seems to mostly be equal to “everyone who knows what they are talking about” is admittedly not a good sign. :) Even the Shades often seem, let’s say, less than thrilled by their conduct.
allmistake22026-01-27 21:29
Hehehe. Fair enough.
AgeAfter2026-01-27 20:04
This is true but Dragon's downfall was imminent either to the Abyss or to the HP. The main reason being their extreme pride in their own race. The Dragons thought themselves way superior to other life forms and didn't think it was working with them to overcome the Abyss. Kukuklan brother of Pyro dragon sovereign notes that this pride is what led to the downfall of Dragons.
Neuvillete character story mentions that maybe Nibelung was wrong and that maybe the only way for life to overcome the Abyss is to bind together and fight as one
Sugar_Poppin2026-01-27 20:21
To combine my other replies -
Imo, Teyvat and the moons were likely always destined to be devoured by the Abyss or die without outside help. I think the PO had the potential to be that driving factor but various actions made it so that Teyvat was on a doomsday timer that the PO could only reset. Not prevent.
I think that's the karma in this scenario. The dragons are forced to degenerate (abandon their pride) and the PO can't be the true hero they wanted to be (can't stop fated destruction).
So more descenders are needed to bridge the gap. That is also essentially the lesson of Natlan. In place of their foolish leaders, all life needs to come together to save the future.
DevonicGamer762026-01-28 00:15
>They let in a usurper, naively thinking they could coexist and didn't do anything to stop him until it was too late.
It wasn't only a case of naivety. Whilst Aria and Canon went in with better expectations of collaboration than Sonnet, the new artifact set details that the Moons alone weren't capable of fending off the Abyss looming in the sky, and Nibelung had left to search for answers with no certainty if or when he would return.
Meanwhile the Heavenly Principles were powerful enough to protect Teyvat, and held hatred towards the Abyss, making them an ideal partner, with the other option being facing possible doom if Nibelung never returns. One of these alas is less risky, Aria and Canon did have a point.
Of course said collaboration came with issues, notably the Heavenly Principles bringing humans with them, requiring Teyvat to be made hospitable for them, which ended up with a war with the dragons, since they of course reasonably also didn't enjoy the idea of being colonized.
But the Moon Sisters also likely couldn't afford to do much except hope the fighting wouldn't end with all dragons gone, which it didn't, since the Heavenly Principles also ceased warring with them after seizing the Elemental Thrones, making the dragons not pose a significant threat to the growing human civilization.
Ultimately the Moons had to make hard decisions, and often the option other than what they chose could have been more catastrophic. Going against the Heavenly Principles would just end up with three dead moons earlier in the timeline, so it's debatable whether they ever truly had a choice.
Neither the Moons or the dragons are in my opinion wrong in their actions and thoughts on the matter, they make sense from their own perspectives.
The true conflict stems from the Heavenly Principles waging war on the Sovereigns, instead of seeking to peacefully establish humans on Teyvat, but going by Apep and Xiuhcoatl, such negotiations didn't seem likely.
Gluecost2026-01-27 19:38
Damn Harry Potter been busy af
imbusthul2026-01-27 19:48
You see for all their loving and kind nature the Moons did not care about the dragons at all. Like Xiuhcoatl tried to contact them several times, even going to their palace to speak to them, only to get ghosted instead. Zero contact. Xiuhcoatl was like, if they didn't speak to him, he would make a 4th Moon himself, though it was never completed and was only half finished. The Pillar in Frostmoon Scions area is his remnants. So for the Dragons, the Moons are just traitors, even if they were the greatest weapon of their corrupting King. The death of the Moons would still bring joy, since from the Dragons perspective the Moons are uncaring of their sufferings even cozying up with the creations of the Usurper which they never did with them. Even when the Moon Sisters were talking to Columbina, they did not mention the dragons other than Nibelung. Like for all the power and responsibilities they have the moons are ignorant of what happens in the world. They saw Heavenly Principles cast down divine Nails but they did not see the rebellion happening below.
Pristine-Pop19672026-01-28 04:30
They were tasked to protect the planet and took it literally. The inhabitants didn't matter to them. So they allowed the Heavenly Principles to reshape the world while they argued between themselves what to do about it. They hesitated for too long but when they allegedly reached an agreement, Nibelung already returned.
So it seems Nibelung was also vague in his directive. He should've seen that the moon sisters would get confused. But we could also say he was overconfident believing his creations would know what to do. He did not forsee a colonizer to arrive and thus he did not explicitly give instructions for this. His first guest was afterall the Voyager who was on good behavior at that time and became friends with.
app082026-01-27 20:15
> for the death of the moons that had once betrayed them
Its right there on the picture you posted. When HP came they did nothing. Sonet is the only real G.
tj22862026-01-27 21:42
Why her?
Khoakuma2026-01-27 22:15
Sonnet (the pink one) wanted to oppose the Heavenly Principles taking over Teyvat and overthrowing the Sovereigns. But she was overruled by Canon and Aria. By the time the Heavenly Principles finished the job it was too late.
tj22862026-01-27 23:06
Oh that's right. Thanks for reminding me.
al_jose3712026-01-27 21:00
They cheered at the death of the moons. Their hatred was soo great. They probably weaponized them knowing very well they'll get destroyed. (Maybe he threw them at HP?)
Shahadem2026-01-27 21:52
Because Nibelung was a tyrant to the other dragons as well.
And as far as we were shown, the moons weren't destroyed. They were locked behind a field by Nibelung. They died when they gave their authority to Columbina.
Mammoth_Potato92222026-01-28 00:11
The moons were destroyed 🤦🏿♀️🤦🏿♀️🤦🏿♀️
2026 and we still have people thinking the moon goddesses and the moons are the same thing
He destroyed the moons
And then imprisoned them
Top-Idea-17862026-01-28 03:57
Ignore him, hes a troll that makes stuff up, he even believes Hoyoverse came up with moon lore on the spot and that the Fatui want to use abyssal energy for.... nothing apparently?
Nero_PR2026-01-27 22:10
This deserves a: READ! READ!!!
kugisaki-kagayama2026-01-27 22:14
Harry Potter destroyed them
MauricioTrinade2026-01-27 22:23
They betrayed the dragons by letting the HP genocide their kind. They didn't aid them on defending the planet, and If you think about it, they didn't defend the planet's order either because they allowed the Phanes to terraform Teyvat for humanity.
They also refuse to even talk to the Pyro Sovereign when he asked for help and took too long to even think about acting, that Nibelung came back from his travel. So i think it's pretty justified that the dragons cheered their deaths.
Pristine-Pop19672026-01-28 04:38
Just a small thing to add. The moon sisters stated that the concept of order came from the Heavenly Principles. Order was not taught to them by Nibelung. So it got them curious about how that would work.
kuzunoha132026-01-27 22:30
Which book is this from?
And does HP == Heavenly Principles?
Zeek0_2452026-01-28 11:52
Yes
Mammoth_Potato92222026-01-28 00:10
Moon sisters literally say they regretted doing what they did
🤣🤣🤣🤣 reading comprehension of an bacillus
HansFactory2026-01-28 00:16
Because these crack head dragons are bums compared to our beloved sustainer of heavenly principle, and the Primordial one
ew_whoisyou2026-01-28 05:01
the second paragraph explains it as clear as day. the moons betrayed Nibelung.
Commentaires
But the Dragon thought, that they were also protected.
Take a seat, young Dragons
*"Moon sisters plays Rules of Nature instead"*
It says something when you have Neuvillette questioning Nibelung's beliefs and the whole tale of Kukulkan seeing greater hopes for the future in humanity than in his own people.
i kept reading Harry Potter
From their POV, they're traitors. They let in a usurper, naively thinking they could coexist and didn't do anything to stop him until it was too late. Hell, they even have the appearance of the beings who are taking over their planet. (Even if that's Nib's doing.)
Cruel or not, it makes logical sense for the dragons to resent the moons for failing to protect them and /seemingly/ take the side of humanity.
Emphasis on seemingly.
The moon sisters only sin is their inaction, which lead to two main POVs that sealed their fate regardless. To Nib and the dragons, they let in and served a new master. They had to be locked away and reprogrammed. To the PO, they were potential sympathizers and tools for the dragons. They had to die. It's as simple as that.
Now would choosing a side fix anything? Not really. Best case scenario, they keep the PO in check but they would need his help against a corrupted Nib. Maybe humanity and the dragons would work together against him, promising a potential true coexistence. But I don't buy it, because the PO isn't inherently benevolent. They're paranoid. No matter what, they would have inevitably turned on the sisters and dragons until the PO had all the power.
That kinda brings us to the present day issue -- the PO is a problem. "Good intentions" are a stretch. They're just a ruler protecting their conquest at the end of the day, trying to preserve their makeshift nest for as long as possible at the cost of the inhabitants. Teyvat is just a mess and I think the PO was doomed to fail the moment they slaughtered the moons. That betrayal kinda set them on a karmic timer.
Edit: not saying they made all the right decisions, or didn't go overboard, but I dont think they are wholly malicious or selfish.
And it's important to note-- most of this kindness was to his own creations and not even blind loyalty could spare you. He's just protecting his own "country" and that's the bare minimum for a ruler. The PO isn't the savior or benefactor of Teyvat. They're a genuine conquerer that restructured everything to suit aliens life forms at the cost of the original inhabitants. And now the PO is willing to sacrifice even that, if any humans can survive at all. A corrupted Nib obviously isn't a better choice, but that shows how terrible the situation was. Teyvat was legit doomed.
In a way, the PO's conquest only bought it time but not eternity.
If I could compare Teyvat's fate to Durin, I would compare mini-Durin to the PO who changed the destiny of the world by supplanting the place of Nib(OG Durin). So instead of immediate Abyssal destruction, it was staved off until a third party (Traveler) could intervene for a truly different ending.
I don't think it's a surprise that every 500yrs(ish) a samara cycle ends with mass destruction via the abyss. A mini-cataclysm representing the original death Teyvat avoided with Nib. It just keeps trying to happen again. And again. And again. And again.
But I'm just in theory territory at this point. 😂
I'm fairly sure all of this is confirmed at this point, no? At least with the most recent AQ.
For instance (bare with my fanfic) they could tell you that the PO became a paranoid bot, because the wars fragmented them and these fragments became the gods of Teyvat who collectively house the kindness, wisdom, and love the PO lost over time. And that wouldn't change anything established, but does change how we would interpret the Archon wars, Celestia, the HP, etc.
The HP also immediately started a 40 year war with the seven sovereigns and even the moon goddesses came to realise they had a desire to control and dominate the world. So yes, it’s fair to say the HP always acted maliciously towards Teyvat’s native inhabitants and then towards even their own creations.
Also given the fact they spared the moons, and that some of the original sovereigns survived til today, it's possible that their conquest of teyvat didnt start violently. I doubt they needed 40 years to deal with the sovereigns. I wont deny they possible could have dealt with the dragons more fairly, but we also haven't heard both sides of that story either.
They arrived and immediately started a war with the native species and then acted selfishly by putting their goal and ambition for Teyvat above all else.
The moons seems unaware of some things though based on them never mentioning the sovereigns which is why I don’t fully believe there was ever a peaceful time of coexistence between the HP and the native dragons.
>>! **Columbina:** ...The Heavenly Principles.!<
>>! **Canon:** Is that what later generations call them? I see... But we did not reject them at first, nor did they seem to harbor ill-intent towards this world.!<
>>! **Canon:** We co-existed in peace. They were like a guest in our home.!<
>>! **Aria:** Slowly, however, we came to realize that our guest had a growing desire to change and dominate the world.!<
That doesn't sound like HP moved in throwing hands from day one. There was SOME period of tolerable co-existence between humans and dragons before HP decided the Sovereigns had to go. You wouldn't refer so someone who waltzes in and murders the folks in charge as "a guest in our home".
Given how ancient the beings are who are talking, this period of tolerance was likely measured across many centuries. It's possible that the Sovereigns weren't even defeated until during the Funerary War - though it's certainly likely that resentment and discontent built up well before that as HP got further and further out of hand.
The Moon Goddesses inaction when the PO arrives is why the dragons view them as traitors a celebrated their fall as described in the original post.
It's unlikely that the Primordial One terraformed its chunk of the world in an afternoon (this terraformation would be necessary for the world to qualify as having been "made anew") - let alone grow the first batch of humans to be present to record all of this stuff for the book. (Though, I suppose this could have been info given to them by the angels?)
A more likely timeline:
\- HP arrives, is welcomed as a guest.
\- HP sets down roots and starts making the world human-habitable.
\- Dragons start to get antsy, because these changes are having a detrimental effect on the dragons' adaptive abilities.
\- The first few generations of humans appear after the world has been made anew.
\- The Sovereigns are no longer tolerant of HP's activities, and wage war. HP defeats them in 40 days while the awestruck humans look on from below.
\- The moon goddesses remain neutral, because technically the Sovereigns threw the first punch. This earns them the ire of dragon kind, both for welcoming HP in the first place and not stepping in when the Sovereigns needed them.
\- Time passes, and goddesses get antsy as HP becomes more paranoid and controlling.
\- Nibelung arrives, and everything goes to hell.
Obviously Before Sun & Moon is quite a biased source heavy of the PO propaganda and so can be questioned — but if we do decide to trust it at least for a rough timeline from the PO’s perspective then they did seek to battle the sovereigns pretty immediately.
I do like a bit more your timeline except it was also only ever the moon goddesses that welcomed them as a guest not the dragons.
It’s overall frustrating that the moon goddesses did not mention the dragons at all when meeting Columbina. We’re left with the impression that they were either completely unaware of what happened to the sovereigns or did not care (except for Sonnet but even then she only specifies Nibelung when talking about her allegiance).
It IS strange that the conflict with the Sovereigns is referenced in the same paragraph - but it's referenced again for the period of time AFTER the doves held the branches, two sections below. It's unlikely that there were two occasions where HP defeated the Sovereigns. I blame bias for this - the writers wanted to emphasize that HP was the rightful ruler, and so while there WAS a period of peace, just keep reading dear readers, and you'll see our glorious lord deal with those nasty dragons in just a bit!
A dove holding a branch COULD symbolize making landfall, as this was how Noah knew that the flood was over in the Bible. This would better support the "instant conflict" interpretation - but again, doesn't jive well with the goddesses' description of HP's arrival as peaceful.
But yeah the discrepancies are confusing and sometimes you don’t know which sources to trust or if we just have to wait for more information to see the full picture. There are a few other discrepancies in what the moon goddesses told Columbina compared to other sources but the biggest is of course them never mentioning the dragons.
There is an argument to be made that if the PO did not arrive, Teyvat would have had trouble regardless, because Nibelung would have come back with Abyssal corruption anyway — though we don’t have too much to go on about how corrupted he became exactly and what he would have done had he found Teyvat as he left it.
But point is still that PO took everything from the existing civilization just to shape the planet according to their will.
And that is disregarding the possiblity of some kind of coexistence with some form of humans. They were described as “a guest” by the Moons, and they could have chosen to negotiate for some way to nurture a species they desired to revive — instead, they opted to conquer their host’s world and plunge their entire civilization into ruin.
From what we’ve seen, the value assigned to the well-being of the planet’s existing inhabitants in the HP’s value function was a big 0 — if they can just terraform the planet, they do so and nothing else matters — which I will not approve of, or even entertain as valid.
We still don't know Phanes side of the story though. The fact they let the moons be makes me think it isnt impossible they didn't try to negotiate at first. We've only heard the story told by people who are opposed to Phanes. Not saying they definitely did, but I dont think it can be ruled out until we get more clarity on the situation. Admittedly even if they did, it probably wouldnt have been the most fair terms they offered.
And I'm not saying I agree with all their actions. I just think the situation is a little more nuanced than Phanes being totally evil. If all they cared about was their own survival, recreating humanity would only have been a liability.
Though the fact that “people who are opposed to Phanes” seems to mostly be equal to “everyone who knows what they are talking about” is admittedly not a good sign. :) Even the Shades often seem, let’s say, less than thrilled by their conduct.
Neuvillete character story mentions that maybe Nibelung was wrong and that maybe the only way for life to overcome the Abyss is to bind together and fight as one
Imo, Teyvat and the moons were likely always destined to be devoured by the Abyss or die without outside help. I think the PO had the potential to be that driving factor but various actions made it so that Teyvat was on a doomsday timer that the PO could only reset. Not prevent.
I think that's the karma in this scenario. The dragons are forced to degenerate (abandon their pride) and the PO can't be the true hero they wanted to be (can't stop fated destruction).
So more descenders are needed to bridge the gap. That is also essentially the lesson of Natlan. In place of their foolish leaders, all life needs to come together to save the future.
It wasn't only a case of naivety. Whilst Aria and Canon went in with better expectations of collaboration than Sonnet, the new artifact set details that the Moons alone weren't capable of fending off the Abyss looming in the sky, and Nibelung had left to search for answers with no certainty if or when he would return.
Meanwhile the Heavenly Principles were powerful enough to protect Teyvat, and held hatred towards the Abyss, making them an ideal partner, with the other option being facing possible doom if Nibelung never returns. One of these alas is less risky, Aria and Canon did have a point.
Of course said collaboration came with issues, notably the Heavenly Principles bringing humans with them, requiring Teyvat to be made hospitable for them, which ended up with a war with the dragons, since they of course reasonably also didn't enjoy the idea of being colonized.
But the Moon Sisters also likely couldn't afford to do much except hope the fighting wouldn't end with all dragons gone, which it didn't, since the Heavenly Principles also ceased warring with them after seizing the Elemental Thrones, making the dragons not pose a significant threat to the growing human civilization.
Ultimately the Moons had to make hard decisions, and often the option other than what they chose could have been more catastrophic. Going against the Heavenly Principles would just end up with three dead moons earlier in the timeline, so it's debatable whether they ever truly had a choice.
Neither the Moons or the dragons are in my opinion wrong in their actions and thoughts on the matter, they make sense from their own perspectives.
The true conflict stems from the Heavenly Principles waging war on the Sovereigns, instead of seeking to peacefully establish humans on Teyvat, but going by Apep and Xiuhcoatl, such negotiations didn't seem likely.
So it seems Nibelung was also vague in his directive. He should've seen that the moon sisters would get confused. But we could also say he was overconfident believing his creations would know what to do. He did not forsee a colonizer to arrive and thus he did not explicitly give instructions for this. His first guest was afterall the Voyager who was on good behavior at that time and became friends with.
It literally says it right here dude.
And as far as we were shown, the moons weren't destroyed. They were locked behind a field by Nibelung. They died when they gave their authority to Columbina.
2026 and we still have people thinking the moon goddesses and the moons are the same thing
He destroyed the moons
And then imprisoned them
They also refuse to even talk to the Pyro Sovereign when he asked for help and took too long to even think about acting, that Nibelung came back from his travel. So i think it's pretty justified that the dragons cheered their deaths.
And does HP == Heavenly Principles?
🤣🤣🤣🤣 reading comprehension of an bacillus