What was your guys most and least favorite thing they did in 5.x and 6.x so far?
My favorite was the uniqueness of natlan design and cool designs in nod krai. Least was intro of the whole needing a dedicated support thing.
Commentaires
StreetWatercress86092026-01-27 23:02
My favorite thing they did was capitano and the least favorite not having enough capitano
La-Roca992026-01-27 23:03
>Least was intro of the whole needing a dedicated support thing.
Guess Xingqiu,Bennett,Sucrose,Xiangling existing all the way back to 1.0 do not matter now do they?
All 4 been required or still used to this day as main stay for support/elemental app
KeyMore94222026-01-27 23:05
I mean like the skirk escoffier, nefer lauma stuff, where its straight up like 30% less dmg without much great alternative
La-Roca992026-01-27 23:29
So was not using Sucrose VV(or Venti/Kazuha) for any PHEC
So was not using Bennett on any atk based dps(also known as all of them minus hu tao and noelle)
So was not using Xingqiu with Hu tao to vaporize consistently
So was not using Xiangling and funneling her particles for National/Rational
And so on
Sara,Gorou,Faruzan are just other names for the same exact Aino,Chevreuse,Escoffier,Lauma. Supports that without owning them(or C6), their respective teams fall off a cliff damage wise
KeyMore94222026-01-27 23:45
There's still alternatives, like for sucrose case any anemo support could be used for vv alone, and they could offer smth else. Lan Yan can do vv and give good shield. Is sucrose better? Pretty much, but there is alternative. Sara is easily replaceable in even her best teams with other more versatile units at this point. We now have plenty hydro characters. The core 4 stars(i call them that) are all just good, and good since launch, but there are many alternatives, in some cases they are the alternative. For nefer, you have much harder time replacing lauma, however. I dont see ur logic
La-Roca992026-01-28 00:14
> There's still alternatives, like for sucrose case any anemo support could be used for vv alone,
I'm talking 1.x btw, alternative were a grand total of
Jean(who not everyone had), Venti(who not everyone had), Anemo traveler(who was bad as a VV carrier) and Sucrose. Later adding Kazuha in 1.6
Thats it
>and they could offer smth else.
"offer something else" and it was just Jean's heals lol
>Lan Yan can do vv and give good shield.
Lanyan also dropped 5 full versions later than Sucrose btw, and she still cannot be more useful than her, regardless of having a shield
>Sara is easily replaceable in even her best teams with other more versatile units at this point.
That doesnt take away she was a must use, and at C6 at that, for Raiden, or other electro dps(Keqing and Razor) during her peak period
>We now have plenty hydro characters.
And yet we still only have 4 4*s, with only 1 of those been universally useful
Just cause the element has a ton of options now, doesnt take away how its the most premium and the one that lacks the most 4*s in comparison with every other, even less 4 stars than geo lmao
>The core 4 stars(i call them that) are all just good, and good since launch, but there are many alternatives, in some cases they are the alternative.
Those alternatives are either not as good, or not as generally useful outside their main teams
So at that point, are they really alternatives, or straight up downgrades
>For nefer, you have much harder time replacing lauma, however. I dont see ur logic
And for Neuvilette,Clorinde and Wrio you have a much harder time replacing Furina
And for Diluc,Xiao you have a much harder time replacing Xianyun
And for PHEC in general you have a harder time replacing Kazuha/Sucrose/Xilonen(than isnt an element locked alternative like Escoffier/Chevreuse)
And so on
Logic, point or whatever you are gonna call it, is that getting mad that "5.x introduces the support+dps combo" when it has been a thing since literally forever of having units glued to others because otherwise they simply work suboptimally is stupid, and a revisionism of past meta teams
[deleted]2026-01-28 16:09
[deleted]
La-Roca992026-01-28 16:19
For the record, illiterate , 3/9, with 6 of the 4*s listed not been avaliable on the paimon shop dont reach the "most" status
I challenge you to use Itto in 2.x without C6 Gorou btw, you will quickly notice how his damage isnt even close to up to par with anyone else, including the big 3 1.0 4*s. And thats in itself sad for a 5* time limited character with a premium setup
You say I'm incapable of reading or comprenhending, yet you are unironically doing the same shit tenfold, projecting much?
[deleted]2026-01-28 16:25
[deleted]
La-Roca992026-01-28 16:39
It just gives cr dmg, arguably the most important damage buff for a dedicated support not that important lmao
You act so smart, and yet you fail at something so basic
Congrats
newplayer1352026-01-27 23:36
Those are 4\*s that are available from the shop and were in every standard banner for ages, along with free cons. I never had a problem with Xiangling really wanting Bennett as a result.
In contrast, have you ever tried playing Nefer without Lauma? Or know anyone who skipped all the NK units, pulled Columbina, and find that she deals like no damage unless you pull another limited 5\*, and can barely clear the dog on Fearless (for most accounts probably can't period).
That being said it's not the worst thing in 6.x, but it's very real.
La-Roca992026-01-28 00:24
> Those are 4*s that are available from the shop and were in every standard banner for ages, along with free cons. I never had a problem with Xiangling really wanting Bennett as a result.
Sucrose isnt avaliable on the shop btw
Been on standard banner doesnt change much either, considering its pool has both weapons and characters equally and you could take years just to get individual copies, let alone to C6 to be remotedly fully usable
>In contrast, have you ever tried playing Nefer without Lauma?
You could, if there was someone else out there with the same dendro app Lauma has, that could provide even weaker buffs
As there is absolutely no one, she is glued to her
On the opposite of the spectrum, Flins, who is considered "shit" without Ineffa, is perfectly usable with just Aino,Raiden/Fischl & Sucrose for a full budget team, at least lvl 5 capable, even without Aino been C6, at C6 team is at its peak anyways
>Or know anyone who skipped all the NK units, pulled Columbina, and find that she deals like no damage unless you pull another limited 5*, and can barely clear the dog on Fearless (for most accounts probably can't period).
Skips all NK units, and then pulls for the NK archon, who works best with NK characters is like skipping venti and then pulling to complete Morgana in 1.x without realizing the main reason it even worked was because of Venti lmao
>and can barely clear the dog on Fearless (for most accounts probably can't period).
If you are skipping multiple banners, why would you even care, or bother, to try and clear Fearless of all things? Might as well ignore it since you dont care about meta and stick to gathering primos?
Thats the most logical course of action of course, we both know thats not an option for Genshin players, but complaining endlessly about self inducing problems is preferable
>That being said it's not the worst thing in 6.x, but it's very real.
Did I ever say its not real?
I simply said it has been a thing for far longer than "5.x/6.x" like rose tinted glasses revisionist want to keep spreading around
Without going too far, Furina and Neuvilette together or separated were night and day for him
Yoimiya,Lyney,Ganyu,Xiao without shielders to avoid getting interrupted and losing on most of their damage
Hu Tao,Yoimiya,Lyney without hydro characters, specifically Yelan and Xingqiu to be able to vaporize their damage
Ganyu without pyro sub dps(which at the time was just Xiangling) unable to melt her hits
Yae without raiden neeeding C1 to be more consistently rotating her burst every other rotation. Kuki been designed with Dendro in mind
Cyno,Nilou,Alhaitham needing Nahida to function,and in Cyno case, even Baizhu for IR and dendro app
etc
newplayer1352026-01-28 01:43
Unit package has been a thing for longer than 5.x-6.x - I never said it wasn't - but my point is, it wasn't nearly on the magnitude that it is in NK, and it was done so in a friendlier manner, and so I can't ever recall having a problem with it.
"You could, if there was someone else out there with the same dendro app Lauma has, that could provide even weaker buffs"
Nahida does roughly what you're describing - and Nefer with Nahida but no Lauma is still awful to play.
"Without going too far, Furina and Neuvilette together or separated were night and day for him"
On release and for many abysses afterwards, C0 Neuvillette vape teams (Neuv/Xl/Kazuha/Zhongli) almost always cleared faster than his Furina teams with optimized gameplay. Only at high cons was Neuv-Furina better. You might argue it's not for casuals, that it requires more resets, but it completely disproves that he needed Furina by any means, if it's not even his ceiling team.
Even today, Neuvillette/XQ/Sucrose/Kachina has cleared Dire Crab at C0R0. Because he loses some, but not nearly as much DPS as Nefer does without Lauma, by not having Furina, Columbina without other NK 5\*, etc.
"Yoimiya,Lyney,Ganyu,Xiao without shielders to avoid getting interrupted and losing on most of their damage"
None of these characters' optimal teams have shielders, neither today nor on release - watch any skilled player use those characters and you'll rarely see shielders, unless it's like C2 Citlali who is not used for the shield but for the fact she's also just the most broken buffer. But watch high-level Nefer gameplay and tell me how often there's no Lauma, and only Nahida as you specified - or Columbina without another 5\* NK. Flins wants Ineffa, but he's the least dependent NK on another NK 5\* - but his performance still goes down pretty solidly without one.
"Yae without raiden needing C1 to be more consistently rotating her burst every other rotation. Kuki been designed with Dendro in mind"
Yae is absolutely tied to no one, and cycling her burst isn't important at all. I've watched high level C0 Yae contest runs in CN, and I've seen various tams, and none of them have Raiden, because her gameplay is quite fluid and flexible. And Kuki's general role is hyperbloom, but it's like, she isn't tied to any particular character at all? You see her on cheap 4\* only clears, so I don't understand that example - yes, teambuilding and synergy is important in genshin? But it's different from requiring pulling specific 5\*s or just-released C6 4\*s otherwise your performance drops off a cliff.
"Hu Tao,Yoimiya,Lyney without hydro characters, specifically Yelan and Xingqiu to be able to vaporize their damage"
Lyney doesn't need hydro at all. Hutao is the only character here that you could argue really wants hydro - but again, XQ was a free and common unit, and Yelan released soon afterwards.
And that's the point I'm trying to make - it's about the player experience - it's a really bad feeling to pull a limited 5\*, and then realize you need to dump another 100 pulls to complete their teams - this was just rarely the case with older units, who also worked much better with non-premium teams. The only real case I can think of is Scara-Faruzan, if you didn't get C6 Faruzan Scara was much much worse and there was no replacement other than using him as a taser driver.
A lot of those old characters really want Bennett, Kazuha for VV, etc. but not only are those friendlier, it's also not exclusive - for example a lot of teams can use Kazuha OR Zhongli OR Sucrose OR Venti as their support slot, not some dedicated tailor-made 5\* support unit. Even Flins, the least dependent NK 5\*, does not have an Ineffa replacement who is only slightly worse for example.
At the end of the day, Neuv doesn't need Furina, bow characters don't need shielders, Dendro units don't need Nahida, on the same scale that Nefer needs Lauma, Columbina needs another 5\* NK, or even Flins needs Ineffa. And when they do need a somewhat specific support, it's often a 1.0 4\*, or a slot that can be filled with multiple options with only slightly downgrade.
La-Roca992026-01-28 10:21
> Unit package has been a thing for longer than 5.x-6.x - I never said it wasn't - but my point is, it wasn't nearly on the magnitude that it is in NK, and it was done so in a friendlier manner, and so I can't ever recall having a problem with it.
"Friendlier manner" and it was still a conveniently released right before time limited unit who worked best with them alongside any other just like Lauma,Ineffa,Escoffier or Citlali do
Yeah
> Nahida does roughly what you're describing - and Nefer with Nahida but no Lauma is still awful to play.
Nahida doesnt have the same self refresh rate that Lauma has tho
And thats the problem. You need to constantly swap to Nahida just to apply dendro again
Its the same problem reverse vaporize had when Mualani came out. Nobody until Mavuika was remotedly consistent at applying pyro in a rate she could benefit from
> On release and for many abysses afterwards, C0 Neuvillette vape teams (Neuv/Xl/Kazuha/Zhongli) almost always cleared faster than his Furina teams with optimized gameplay. Only at high cons was Neuv-Furina better. You might argue it's not for casuals, that it requires more resets, but it completely disproves that he needed Furina by any means, if it's not even his ceiling team.
So
You needed 2 other limited 5*, and one of the big 4, to replace 1 singular support that released right after he did
And somehow its not a problem then but its a problem now
> Even today, Neuvillette/XQ/Sucrose/Kachina has cleared Dire Crab at C0R0. Because he loses some, but not nearly as much DPS as Nefer does without Lauma, by not having Furina, Columbina without other NK 5*, etc.
Crab shills him,if he cant clear it comfortably at C0 then nobody does. And he still needs another hydro to do so. Which goes back to the point the problem has existed for a long time, and the comment you are supporting says otherwise
> None of these characters' optimal teams have shielders, neither today nor on release - watch any skilled player use those characters and you'll rarely see shielders, unless it's like C2 Citlali who is not used for the shield but for the fact she's also just the most broken buffer.
Release Xiao team: Zhongli,Albedo C4, Bennett/Jean C4. Bear in mind Abyss was filled with Mitachurls whose ice field interrupted Xiao upon landing losing on damage
Nowadays Xiao team:Xianyun Furina Faruzan Xiao. Even shilled bosses such as Gravity Meka interrupt him heavility without shield unless you time your jumps perfectly to land when its AoE has passed
Release Ganyu team: Ganyu Xianling Zhongli Sucrose. If you dont double charge shot she loses like 50% of her damage
Nowadays Ganyu team: Ganyu Escoffier Furina Shenhe/Citlali. Permafreeze is a form of shielding
Release Yoimiya team: Yoimiya Xingqiu Yelan Zhongli. If she loses her attack string, she loses her biggest hit which is the last one
Nowadays Yoimiya team: Citlali Yoimiya Furina/Yelan Xilonen. Same thing
>But watch high-level Nefer gameplay and tell me how often there's no Lauma, and only Nahida as you specified - or Columbina without another 5* NK. Flins wants Ineffa, but he's the least dependent NK on another NK 5* - but his performance still goes down pretty solidly without one.
High level Nefer gameplay, you mean the type of gameplay about 99% of players do not have access to, either because of not having the mechanical skill or knowledge about it, and will instead use her normally? Same as Mavuika/Skirk and their "combos"
> Yae is absolutely tied to no one, and cycling her burst isn't important at all. I've watched high level C0 Yae contest runs in CN, and I've seen various tams, and none of them have Raiden, because her gameplay is quite fluid and flexible. And Kuki's general role is hyperbloom, but it's like, she isn't tied to any particular character at all? You see her on cheap 4* only clears, so I don't understand that example - yes, teambuilding and synergy is important in genshin? But it's different from requiring pulling specific 5*s or just-released C6 4*s otherwise your performance drops off a cliff.
Like talking to a wall
Constest runs on CN? So what? Are they the "standard"? No, then why bring em up?
0.01% of the playerbase runs dont take away that people have complained about her been clunky to use even tho she is one of the simplest characters in the game
> Lyney doesn't need hydro at all. Hutao is the only character here that you could argue really wants hydro - but again, XQ was a free and common unit, and Yelan released soon afterwards.
Soon afterwards been almost 2 years later but ok
Also justifying been glued to someone when another someone to be glued on shows up later as a time limited 5* lol
> And that's the point I'm trying to make - it's about the player experience - it's a really bad feeling to pull a limited 5*, and then realize you need to dump another 100 pulls to complete their teams - this was just rarely the case with older units, who also worked much better with non-premium teams. The only real case I can think of is Scara-Faruzan, if you didn't get C6 Faruzan Scara was much much worse and there was no replacement other than using him as a taser driver.
Nilou-Nahida
Cyno-Nahida-Baizhu
Furina-Neuvilette/Wrio
Yelan-Hu Tao
Xingqiu-Hu Tao
The older you go the more common examples you will find, even if you wanna ignore the entirety of Inazuma, which still has Gorou-Itto as another example btw
Point is, saying 5.x and 6.x "started" with the 2 package deal is stupid.Plain and simple
> A lot of those old characters really want Bennett, Kazuha for VV, etc. but not only are those friendlier, it's also not exclusive - for example a lot of teams can use Kazuha OR Zhongli OR Sucrose OR Venti as their support slot, not some dedicated tailor-made 5* support unit. Even Flins, the least dependent NK 5*, does not have an Ineffa replacement who is only slightly worse for example.
Fischl exists
> At the end of the day, Neuv doesn't need Furina, bow characters don't need shielders, Dendro units don't need Nahida, on the same scale that Nefer needs Lauma, Columbina needs another 5* NK, or even Flins needs Ineffa. And when they do need a somewhat specific support, it's often a 1.0 4*, or a slot that can be filled with multiple options with only slightly downgrade
Yoimiya needed a shielder, otherwise a Kairagi will lock you out if your comvo
Dendro units did in fact need Nahida, otherwise you are just barely making do with Traveler or Collei, which were far far worse in comparison
Columbina the 5* NK support needs another 5* NK. Color me shocked. Almost like Furina with Fontaine characters and Marechausse Hunter enabled dps
But no, Furina wasnt somehow required. But Columbina is lol
I already said Flins does not need Ineffa at all,Free Aino is enough. Fischl/Raiden for battery and particles and Sucrose for VV and TTDS
newplayer1352026-01-28 12:40
I don't have time to respond to every single thing you're saying, but I disagree with almost all of the examples you're giving. None of the examples you gave even come close to Nefer/Columbina's reliance on specific limited 5\*s from falling off a cliff, either because they have 1.0 4\* options that have nearly 100% ownership rate, don't fall off nearly as hard, or their team "restrictions" can be alleviated simply by playing better (almost every single team that "requires" a DPS loss shielder - proven by the fact that almost every abyss, with only a few exceptions, could be soloed with C0 Ganyu/Keqing/Xiao/Hutao etc. with a bit of practice).
I don't think I'll be able to convince you of anything or make any progress.
newplayer1352026-01-28 13:08
"
>
So
You needed 2 other limited 5\*, and one of the big 4, to replace 1 singular support that released right after he did"
I also just want to point out how bad faith or ignorant this is, and shows how you're not willing to consider the points I'm making, just spout out some gotchas. So why even bother?
Who do you think replaced Furina on that team, and cleared faster? Do you even know what the best Neuv-Furina team was at that time period? Or do you seriously think I'm talking about a duo team?
La-Roca992026-01-28 13:16
You are still ignoring that the comment I was replying to specifically said and I quote *again*
"Duo teams only started on 5.x and 6.x"
And yet you are still here debating if wether Furina didnt simplify Neuvilette's team options and boosted his potential, with anything else been a welcomed bonus rather than a requirement?
KhadaFeathers2026-01-27 23:10
I love the mobility that was added on Natlan, but I also hate it because it's so good that exploring other areas feels slow. Nod'Krai is amazing but since mobility is not a big part of the region the map in general feels small even tho it's not.
Plus-Theme-32832026-01-27 23:24
Favourite: the traveler treatment
Least favourite: not making the chronicles banner of liuye return in 6.3 and destroy my carrier as visionary
NemesisCat72026-01-27 23:27
Favorite was all of Natlan. Character designs, map, music exploration were all amazing! Loved little buddy world quests, multiple fun local legends, even how the NPCs were sometimes not as aggressive and would talk smack before fighting. Enjoyed how the story quests were implemented.
Enjoy the story and characters of Nod Krai tons! Love the look of Hisii Island. Music is beautiful yet haunting, it suites the region very well.
Not a fan of how Natlan got hosed compared to other regions. Wish we got more than 11 characters, 1 world boss, not shorted a map expansion, only one pyro characters, no buddy for Mualani...
Not a fan of pulling two characters to power 1, story quests inside AQ, Nod Krai exploration, lack of cohesion for how the area looks, end game getting obnoxious, lunar being so restrictive and boring, 4* without lunar triggers and irrelevant until c6,
newplayer1352026-01-27 23:38
Favorite thing: MW dummy dps testing.
Least favorite: Every new boss: "Use specific racial units / elemental combination or I gain 150 RES for half the timer/instakill you"
natlansucks2026-01-28 00:08
Least favorite were story and most character designs, along with powercreep, character shilling bosses, worse/less common exploration and various annoying changes no one asked for (ever-present quest pic on the map, changes to controller menu navigation that I'm still not used to due to 4+ years of previous muscle memory etc.)
Favorite was character buffs and some minor QoL tidbits here and there, so not very much. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the direction the game has taken as a whole lol. Very noticeable drop compared to Fontaine.
Plus-Theme-32832026-01-28 15:59
Fontine glazers man
natlansucks2026-01-28 16:12
Sorry I don't like settling for lower quality slop and ever-increasing greed when they previously proved they could write decent stories and handle the balancing without powercreeping every month. Either you're just delusional or you started playing after 5.0.
Plus-Theme-32832026-01-28 16:17
Sure buddy what ever you say
Shahadem2026-01-28 02:48
Favorite: Made Chasca an easy mode auto targeting flying character
Spice-Weasel2026-01-28 03:03
Favorite: Traveler actually speaking.
Least Favorite: Team/region restricting character kits (Nightsoul, Ascendant Gleam, Hexerei, Skirk's hydro/cryo restriction, etc)
Commentaires
Guess Xingqiu,Bennett,Sucrose,Xiangling existing all the way back to 1.0 do not matter now do they?
All 4 been required or still used to this day as main stay for support/elemental app
So was not using Bennett on any atk based dps(also known as all of them minus hu tao and noelle)
So was not using Xingqiu with Hu tao to vaporize consistently
So was not using Xiangling and funneling her particles for National/Rational
And so on
Sara,Gorou,Faruzan are just other names for the same exact Aino,Chevreuse,Escoffier,Lauma. Supports that without owning them(or C6), their respective teams fall off a cliff damage wise
I'm talking 1.x btw, alternative were a grand total of
Jean(who not everyone had), Venti(who not everyone had), Anemo traveler(who was bad as a VV carrier) and Sucrose. Later adding Kazuha in 1.6
Thats it
>and they could offer smth else.
"offer something else" and it was just Jean's heals lol
>Lan Yan can do vv and give good shield.
Lanyan also dropped 5 full versions later than Sucrose btw, and she still cannot be more useful than her, regardless of having a shield
>Sara is easily replaceable in even her best teams with other more versatile units at this point.
That doesnt take away she was a must use, and at C6 at that, for Raiden, or other electro dps(Keqing and Razor) during her peak period
>We now have plenty hydro characters.
And yet we still only have 4 4*s, with only 1 of those been universally useful
Just cause the element has a ton of options now, doesnt take away how its the most premium and the one that lacks the most 4*s in comparison with every other, even less 4 stars than geo lmao
>The core 4 stars(i call them that) are all just good, and good since launch, but there are many alternatives, in some cases they are the alternative.
Those alternatives are either not as good, or not as generally useful outside their main teams
So at that point, are they really alternatives, or straight up downgrades
>For nefer, you have much harder time replacing lauma, however. I dont see ur logic
And for Neuvilette,Clorinde and Wrio you have a much harder time replacing Furina
And for Diluc,Xiao you have a much harder time replacing Xianyun
And for PHEC in general you have a harder time replacing Kazuha/Sucrose/Xilonen(than isnt an element locked alternative like Escoffier/Chevreuse)
And so on
Logic, point or whatever you are gonna call it, is that getting mad that "5.x introduces the support+dps combo" when it has been a thing since literally forever of having units glued to others because otherwise they simply work suboptimally is stupid, and a revisionism of past meta teams
I challenge you to use Itto in 2.x without C6 Gorou btw, you will quickly notice how his damage isnt even close to up to par with anyone else, including the big 3 1.0 4*s. And thats in itself sad for a 5* time limited character with a premium setup
You say I'm incapable of reading or comprenhending, yet you are unironically doing the same shit tenfold, projecting much?
You act so smart, and yet you fail at something so basic
Congrats
In contrast, have you ever tried playing Nefer without Lauma? Or know anyone who skipped all the NK units, pulled Columbina, and find that she deals like no damage unless you pull another limited 5\*, and can barely clear the dog on Fearless (for most accounts probably can't period).
That being said it's not the worst thing in 6.x, but it's very real.
Sucrose isnt avaliable on the shop btw
Been on standard banner doesnt change much either, considering its pool has both weapons and characters equally and you could take years just to get individual copies, let alone to C6 to be remotedly fully usable
>In contrast, have you ever tried playing Nefer without Lauma?
You could, if there was someone else out there with the same dendro app Lauma has, that could provide even weaker buffs
As there is absolutely no one, she is glued to her
On the opposite of the spectrum, Flins, who is considered "shit" without Ineffa, is perfectly usable with just Aino,Raiden/Fischl & Sucrose for a full budget team, at least lvl 5 capable, even without Aino been C6, at C6 team is at its peak anyways
>Or know anyone who skipped all the NK units, pulled Columbina, and find that she deals like no damage unless you pull another limited 5*, and can barely clear the dog on Fearless (for most accounts probably can't period).
Skips all NK units, and then pulls for the NK archon, who works best with NK characters is like skipping venti and then pulling to complete Morgana in 1.x without realizing the main reason it even worked was because of Venti lmao
>and can barely clear the dog on Fearless (for most accounts probably can't period).
If you are skipping multiple banners, why would you even care, or bother, to try and clear Fearless of all things? Might as well ignore it since you dont care about meta and stick to gathering primos?
Thats the most logical course of action of course, we both know thats not an option for Genshin players, but complaining endlessly about self inducing problems is preferable
>That being said it's not the worst thing in 6.x, but it's very real.
Did I ever say its not real?
I simply said it has been a thing for far longer than "5.x/6.x" like rose tinted glasses revisionist want to keep spreading around
Without going too far, Furina and Neuvilette together or separated were night and day for him
Yoimiya,Lyney,Ganyu,Xiao without shielders to avoid getting interrupted and losing on most of their damage
Hu Tao,Yoimiya,Lyney without hydro characters, specifically Yelan and Xingqiu to be able to vaporize their damage
Ganyu without pyro sub dps(which at the time was just Xiangling) unable to melt her hits
Yae without raiden neeeding C1 to be more consistently rotating her burst every other rotation. Kuki been designed with Dendro in mind
Cyno,Nilou,Alhaitham needing Nahida to function,and in Cyno case, even Baizhu for IR and dendro app
etc
"You could, if there was someone else out there with the same dendro app Lauma has, that could provide even weaker buffs"
Nahida does roughly what you're describing - and Nefer with Nahida but no Lauma is still awful to play.
"Without going too far, Furina and Neuvilette together or separated were night and day for him"
On release and for many abysses afterwards, C0 Neuvillette vape teams (Neuv/Xl/Kazuha/Zhongli) almost always cleared faster than his Furina teams with optimized gameplay. Only at high cons was Neuv-Furina better. You might argue it's not for casuals, that it requires more resets, but it completely disproves that he needed Furina by any means, if it's not even his ceiling team.
Even today, Neuvillette/XQ/Sucrose/Kachina has cleared Dire Crab at C0R0. Because he loses some, but not nearly as much DPS as Nefer does without Lauma, by not having Furina, Columbina without other NK 5\*, etc.
"Yoimiya,Lyney,Ganyu,Xiao without shielders to avoid getting interrupted and losing on most of their damage"
None of these characters' optimal teams have shielders, neither today nor on release - watch any skilled player use those characters and you'll rarely see shielders, unless it's like C2 Citlali who is not used for the shield but for the fact she's also just the most broken buffer. But watch high-level Nefer gameplay and tell me how often there's no Lauma, and only Nahida as you specified - or Columbina without another 5\* NK. Flins wants Ineffa, but he's the least dependent NK on another NK 5\* - but his performance still goes down pretty solidly without one.
"Yae without raiden needing C1 to be more consistently rotating her burst every other rotation. Kuki been designed with Dendro in mind"
Yae is absolutely tied to no one, and cycling her burst isn't important at all. I've watched high level C0 Yae contest runs in CN, and I've seen various tams, and none of them have Raiden, because her gameplay is quite fluid and flexible. And Kuki's general role is hyperbloom, but it's like, she isn't tied to any particular character at all? You see her on cheap 4\* only clears, so I don't understand that example - yes, teambuilding and synergy is important in genshin? But it's different from requiring pulling specific 5\*s or just-released C6 4\*s otherwise your performance drops off a cliff.
"Hu Tao,Yoimiya,Lyney without hydro characters, specifically Yelan and Xingqiu to be able to vaporize their damage"
Lyney doesn't need hydro at all. Hutao is the only character here that you could argue really wants hydro - but again, XQ was a free and common unit, and Yelan released soon afterwards.
And that's the point I'm trying to make - it's about the player experience - it's a really bad feeling to pull a limited 5\*, and then realize you need to dump another 100 pulls to complete their teams - this was just rarely the case with older units, who also worked much better with non-premium teams. The only real case I can think of is Scara-Faruzan, if you didn't get C6 Faruzan Scara was much much worse and there was no replacement other than using him as a taser driver.
A lot of those old characters really want Bennett, Kazuha for VV, etc. but not only are those friendlier, it's also not exclusive - for example a lot of teams can use Kazuha OR Zhongli OR Sucrose OR Venti as their support slot, not some dedicated tailor-made 5\* support unit. Even Flins, the least dependent NK 5\*, does not have an Ineffa replacement who is only slightly worse for example.
At the end of the day, Neuv doesn't need Furina, bow characters don't need shielders, Dendro units don't need Nahida, on the same scale that Nefer needs Lauma, Columbina needs another 5\* NK, or even Flins needs Ineffa. And when they do need a somewhat specific support, it's often a 1.0 4\*, or a slot that can be filled with multiple options with only slightly downgrade.
"Friendlier manner" and it was still a conveniently released right before time limited unit who worked best with them alongside any other just like Lauma,Ineffa,Escoffier or Citlali do
Yeah
> Nahida does roughly what you're describing - and Nefer with Nahida but no Lauma is still awful to play.
Nahida doesnt have the same self refresh rate that Lauma has tho
And thats the problem. You need to constantly swap to Nahida just to apply dendro again
Its the same problem reverse vaporize had when Mualani came out. Nobody until Mavuika was remotedly consistent at applying pyro in a rate she could benefit from
> On release and for many abysses afterwards, C0 Neuvillette vape teams (Neuv/Xl/Kazuha/Zhongli) almost always cleared faster than his Furina teams with optimized gameplay. Only at high cons was Neuv-Furina better. You might argue it's not for casuals, that it requires more resets, but it completely disproves that he needed Furina by any means, if it's not even his ceiling team.
So
You needed 2 other limited 5*, and one of the big 4, to replace 1 singular support that released right after he did
And somehow its not a problem then but its a problem now
> Even today, Neuvillette/XQ/Sucrose/Kachina has cleared Dire Crab at C0R0. Because he loses some, but not nearly as much DPS as Nefer does without Lauma, by not having Furina, Columbina without other NK 5*, etc.
Crab shills him,if he cant clear it comfortably at C0 then nobody does. And he still needs another hydro to do so. Which goes back to the point the problem has existed for a long time, and the comment you are supporting says otherwise
> None of these characters' optimal teams have shielders, neither today nor on release - watch any skilled player use those characters and you'll rarely see shielders, unless it's like C2 Citlali who is not used for the shield but for the fact she's also just the most broken buffer.
Release Xiao team: Zhongli,Albedo C4, Bennett/Jean C4. Bear in mind Abyss was filled with Mitachurls whose ice field interrupted Xiao upon landing losing on damage
Nowadays Xiao team:Xianyun Furina Faruzan Xiao. Even shilled bosses such as Gravity Meka interrupt him heavility without shield unless you time your jumps perfectly to land when its AoE has passed
Release Ganyu team: Ganyu Xianling Zhongli Sucrose. If you dont double charge shot she loses like 50% of her damage
Nowadays Ganyu team: Ganyu Escoffier Furina Shenhe/Citlali. Permafreeze is a form of shielding
Release Yoimiya team: Yoimiya Xingqiu Yelan Zhongli. If she loses her attack string, she loses her biggest hit which is the last one
Nowadays Yoimiya team: Citlali Yoimiya Furina/Yelan Xilonen. Same thing
>But watch high-level Nefer gameplay and tell me how often there's no Lauma, and only Nahida as you specified - or Columbina without another 5* NK. Flins wants Ineffa, but he's the least dependent NK on another NK 5* - but his performance still goes down pretty solidly without one.
High level Nefer gameplay, you mean the type of gameplay about 99% of players do not have access to, either because of not having the mechanical skill or knowledge about it, and will instead use her normally? Same as Mavuika/Skirk and their "combos"
> Yae is absolutely tied to no one, and cycling her burst isn't important at all. I've watched high level C0 Yae contest runs in CN, and I've seen various tams, and none of them have Raiden, because her gameplay is quite fluid and flexible. And Kuki's general role is hyperbloom, but it's like, she isn't tied to any particular character at all? You see her on cheap 4* only clears, so I don't understand that example - yes, teambuilding and synergy is important in genshin? But it's different from requiring pulling specific 5*s or just-released C6 4*s otherwise your performance drops off a cliff.
Like talking to a wall
Constest runs on CN? So what? Are they the "standard"? No, then why bring em up?
0.01% of the playerbase runs dont take away that people have complained about her been clunky to use even tho she is one of the simplest characters in the game
> Lyney doesn't need hydro at all. Hutao is the only character here that you could argue really wants hydro - but again, XQ was a free and common unit, and Yelan released soon afterwards.
Soon afterwards been almost 2 years later but ok
Also justifying been glued to someone when another someone to be glued on shows up later as a time limited 5* lol
> And that's the point I'm trying to make - it's about the player experience - it's a really bad feeling to pull a limited 5*, and then realize you need to dump another 100 pulls to complete their teams - this was just rarely the case with older units, who also worked much better with non-premium teams. The only real case I can think of is Scara-Faruzan, if you didn't get C6 Faruzan Scara was much much worse and there was no replacement other than using him as a taser driver.
Nilou-Nahida
Cyno-Nahida-Baizhu
Furina-Neuvilette/Wrio
Yelan-Hu Tao
Xingqiu-Hu Tao
The older you go the more common examples you will find, even if you wanna ignore the entirety of Inazuma, which still has Gorou-Itto as another example btw
Point is, saying 5.x and 6.x "started" with the 2 package deal is stupid.Plain and simple
> A lot of those old characters really want Bennett, Kazuha for VV, etc. but not only are those friendlier, it's also not exclusive - for example a lot of teams can use Kazuha OR Zhongli OR Sucrose OR Venti as their support slot, not some dedicated tailor-made 5* support unit. Even Flins, the least dependent NK 5*, does not have an Ineffa replacement who is only slightly worse for example.
Fischl exists
> At the end of the day, Neuv doesn't need Furina, bow characters don't need shielders, Dendro units don't need Nahida, on the same scale that Nefer needs Lauma, Columbina needs another 5* NK, or even Flins needs Ineffa. And when they do need a somewhat specific support, it's often a 1.0 4*, or a slot that can be filled with multiple options with only slightly downgrade
Yoimiya needed a shielder, otherwise a Kairagi will lock you out if your comvo
Dendro units did in fact need Nahida, otherwise you are just barely making do with Traveler or Collei, which were far far worse in comparison
Columbina the 5* NK support needs another 5* NK. Color me shocked. Almost like Furina with Fontaine characters and Marechausse Hunter enabled dps
But no, Furina wasnt somehow required. But Columbina is lol
I already said Flins does not need Ineffa at all,Free Aino is enough. Fischl/Raiden for battery and particles and Sucrose for VV and TTDS
I don't think I'll be able to convince you of anything or make any progress.
>
So
You needed 2 other limited 5\*, and one of the big 4, to replace 1 singular support that released right after he did"
I also just want to point out how bad faith or ignorant this is, and shows how you're not willing to consider the points I'm making, just spout out some gotchas. So why even bother?
Who do you think replaced Furina on that team, and cleared faster? Do you even know what the best Neuv-Furina team was at that time period? Or do you seriously think I'm talking about a duo team?
"Duo teams only started on 5.x and 6.x"
And yet you are still here debating if wether Furina didnt simplify Neuvilette's team options and boosted his potential, with anything else been a welcomed bonus rather than a requirement?
Least favourite: not making the chronicles banner of liuye return in 6.3 and destroy my carrier as visionary
Enjoy the story and characters of Nod Krai tons! Love the look of Hisii Island. Music is beautiful yet haunting, it suites the region very well.
Not a fan of how Natlan got hosed compared to other regions. Wish we got more than 11 characters, 1 world boss, not shorted a map expansion, only one pyro characters, no buddy for Mualani...
Not a fan of pulling two characters to power 1, story quests inside AQ, Nod Krai exploration, lack of cohesion for how the area looks, end game getting obnoxious, lunar being so restrictive and boring, 4* without lunar triggers and irrelevant until c6,
Least favorite: Every new boss: "Use specific racial units / elemental combination or I gain 150 RES for half the timer/instakill you"
Favorite was character buffs and some minor QoL tidbits here and there, so not very much. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the direction the game has taken as a whole lol. Very noticeable drop compared to Fontaine.
Least Favorite: Team/region restricting character kits (Nightsoul, Ascendant Gleam, Hexerei, Skirk's hydro/cryo restriction, etc)